Coyotes to Winnipeg? Fact or fiction?
by MotownSarge on Apr 18, 2011 8:23 AM MST
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OK Coyotes fans, I (and many other interested parties) want to hear from you. There seems to be a ton of misinformation and speculation about your hometown team moving to Winnipeg in the near future. So tell us straight up: What do you know? We've heard there is at least one interested buyer in the Phoenix/Glendale area -- Is this true? Does anyone know who the buyer is? Is there a deal on the table or are they just in the "talking" phase? More importantly, is there more than one interested buyer in the area? The intel we're getting is that the move from Phoenix to Winnipeg is all but a done deal, but bear in mind we're getting this "intel" from our friends right across the border in Windsor. We'd like to know what's REALLY going on. So if you are in Arizona and you're in the know, sound off!
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Sarge
You can go through the archives and get all the backstory you need here. There’s a deal done, in place to sell the team to wealthy businessman Matthew Hulsizer that is ready to be finalized if the City of Glendale can sell some municipal bonds to finance a portion of the purchase price/arena operations fees. A local “watchdog” group, Goldwater Institute is threatening to sue to block the sale claiming it violates the Arizona Constitution. This has completely blocked the sale of the bonds and prevented the deal from finalizing. That is also all the information that anyone has about it from any reputable source. Plenty of reports have come out of the Great White North saying that it’s over and the team is moving; each report is refuted by Bettman and Daly and the NHL. We, the fans, remain in limbo and unsure but don’t really care to focus on it because there are more pressing matters at hand (like getting back in this series with a win tonight and Wednesday).
Hope that helps.
Support Coyotes Hockey - Five For Howling
(Oh, and go Philly teams as well!)
Thanks Jordan...
…and here’s to the hope that the deal will go through. The one thing that struck me as odd, however, was when Commissioner Bettman was questioned about the move. He said, in so many words, “There is no deal, and there is no timetable for moving the team.” Sounds kind of contradictory to me — why say anything about a timetable for moving if there really is no plan to move the team?
There’s plenty of misinformation, Gary Lawless of the WFP writes story after story bashing not only the fans of the Coyotes, but the city of Glendale, the proposed sale to Hulsizer, and just about every thing else in between that has to do with Glendale. He also spews plenty of speculation and not much fact.
It seems over the last few months every sports writer north of the border is suddenly an Arizona constitutional expert. This new found expertise also comes complete with lavish, over the top praise for a extremist political group (I don’t refer to them as a “watchdog group”, because they’re not) in the Goldwater Institute.
Anyway, the bottom line is this, if Glendale can get the bonds sold, or use their reserve funds to finance the sale, the deal will close. Once that happens I’m fairly certain the NHL will allow the case to be litigated in court and I seriously don’t think GWI has much chance of winning.
Why is GWI involved at all?
Mike, I have to admit this is confusing. I’m familiar with the Goldwater Institute, and as far as their political stance goes, I have to say I agree with much of what they stand for. However, GWI getting involved in the sale of a professional sports team seems as superfluous as Congress forming a committee to investigate the use of performance-enhancing substances in Major League Baseball. It also makes GWI appear somewhat suspect in defending the Arizona Constitution when they have been outspoken about Federal Constitutional reform. Is GWI concerned that the sale of the municipal bonds will make the city of Glendale financially insolvent? That’s the only thing that makes any sense. It would really suck for the people of Arizona to have to bail Glendale out…
how are you familiar with the goldwater institute and what they stand for?
Just curious how someone from Detroit would know the GWI… I’m not questioning anything or you, its just that I live in Phoenix and never had heard of them until this. I would love to have all of the members of the GWI sit down with the 1000 employees at Westgate and all of the small business owners in the area and see how they feel about this “watchdog” “protecting” them. A few concerts a year and football 10 Sundays a year is not going to cut it. People will lose jobs, the city will suffer and lose much more by this team leaving. Its apparent and obvious to all, so I beg the question, what is GWI standing for? What are they hoping to gain? They still haven’t even come out and said that the sale is illegal, just that they “think” it is. I think its time for the COG to stand up and fend for themselves. They stand to lose everything while the GWI sits back with a smile, proud of destroying a city.
by Gildo on Apr 19, 2011 11:01 AM MST up reply actions 2 recs
I'm familiar with GWI because...
…they lean well toward the conservative when it comes to politics, and my older brother is a HARD-CORE conservative — he makes Pat Robertson look like freakin’ Keith Richards! Again, I have to wonder why GWI is involved in this, and the only thing that makes sense is the financial solvency of Glendale if the bonds are sold. However, as you pointed out, it’s a double-edged sword. Put up some bond money, or put folks out of business (or out of work)? And yes, I also have to wonder why Hulsizer is asking the city to open its wallet when he has enough money to cover the purchase (and could use the team as a cozy tax write-off if they operate in the red…)
by MotownSarge on Apr 19, 2011 12:24 PM MST up reply actions
Correct
I see enough people posting how the GWI and COG are the bad guys. Hulsizer is the rich guy here not wanting to use his own money but use the tax payers money of a city and state that he doesn’t even pay tax in! Credit where credit is due as well as laying blame on the one that deserves it.
Gildo,
Are you suggesting that COG go ahead and violate the Arizona Constitution?
Might as well roll the dice with it...
It’s like passing a ball, three things can happen, two are bad.
But I guess you could argue the lawsuit on constitutionality and the team leaving is a joint issue. I disagree though.
It's not what you've done but what you are doing that matters.
Maybe next year the Ice Surface at Jobing.com should be frozen with the tears of Winnipeg. - TimmyHate of FiveForHowling to a troll after it was alleged Coyote fans do not know how to ice skate.
by AlabamaJammer on Apr 19, 2011 4:04 PM MST up reply actions
explain
how they are violating the law? well, forget it actually, because you will never, ever convince me they are.
La vida no se ha hecho para comprenderla, sino para vivirla.
by unnamedDBacksfan on Apr 19, 2011 7:23 PM MST up reply actions
If they were convinced they weren’t violating the law, why would they be afraid of the threat of a lawsuit?
by dzuunmod on Apr 19, 2011 11:15 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Who’s afraid? If the bonds sell Glendale will close the deal, quite honestly I don’t think they’re worried one bit about a lawsuit. It’s the bond buyers that are scared off.
Ok then – if Hulsizer could easily be convinced the deal wasn’t violating the law, why hasn’t it happened yet?
Hulsizer is not worried one bit, trust me, he’s has more lawyers than you can count on both hands and feet. He has no doubt the deal is legal and he really doesn’t stand much to lose if it for some far fetched reason it’s not.
As I said, the deal will close, IF the bonds are sold or Glendale uses their reserve funds. The only people nervous are the potential bond buyers.
Here's why the city of Glendale deal IS legal
The crux of The Goldwater Institutes potential lawsuit lies in one area, and one area only. The parking rights. The only real shot they have is to prove that Glendale already owns the rights and thus can’t buy them from Hulsizer.
But like any lease, the parking lot comes with the building. In the past I’ve used this rather simple example of a person renting the home they own to someone. Once the home has been leased, can the owner simply show up and park their car in the driveway any time they want? I mean they own the house so why not?
The answer is; of course the owner of the house has no right to show up and park their car in the driveway because they have legally leased the house to someone else. What would have to happen for the owner to park their car in the driveway is the owner would have to offer the renter something in return, perhaps cheaper rent payments, thus buying the rights to park in the driveway
What is happening in Glendale is the city is simply buying the rights for the parking lot from the person they have legally leased the property too. Once they do this then they can charge for parking. There’s nothing illegal about it.
His point above is valid though
If the city and investors were so sure GWI was full of it why wouldn’t they be selling and buying the bonds respectively? Why would they all fear a lawsuit as they clearly do right now?
A lawsuit would drive up the interest rates on the bonds...
…making them more expensive when they mature, if they’re issued.
And anyone can file a lawsuit. Hopefully the court sees it as frivilous.
It's not what you've done but what you are doing that matters.
Maybe next year the Ice Surface at Jobing.com should be frozen with the tears of Winnipeg. - TimmyHate of FiveForHowling to a troll after it was alleged Coyote fans do not know how to ice skate.
by AlabamaJammer on Apr 20, 2011 12:29 PM MST up reply actions
Won't matter if they don't sell the bonds
GWI won’t have to sue. And I highly doubt it’ll be thrown out as frivolous. It may have some merit even if inconvenient for Glendale and Coyotes fans.
It’s simply one groups opinion that the deal violates the Arizona Constitution. If I had the time or the space here I would explain how it doesn’t, I would also cite several of GWI’s own cases as examples as to why it’s not.
I would bet money that if, (and I hope it does go to court) the deal would be validated. GWI knows this, Clint may be an idiot, but he’s not stupid. The publicity is what is driving Goldwater, Darcy et all are lavishing the spotlight and the donations that come with it.
Feeling your pain.
Yes, I am from Canada. 2 hours west of Winnipeg. It is almost the exact same situation right now as it was back when the Jets were being relocated out of Wpg for Phoenix in 96. There was the same public out cries then as there is now. An owner that had lost too much money on the Jets, (Barry Shenkarow) and now an owner not willing to take a chance with his own money on the team. Mathew Hulsizer has the money. He can but this team over and over again. So this begs the question, Why won’t he? Why doesn’t he show the people of Arizona that he is really committed to the area. If he was buying the Chicago Black Hawks, you can bet he would be putting up his own money! The owner in Phoenix when the Jets left had his own money. Now the prospective owner in Wpg is amongst the wealthiest men in the world. I understand your passion for a team. I followed the Coyotes as ‘My team" for a few years after they left, but lost touch with the lack of media coverage we had up here on them. I am still without a team to really be a fan of. I am not unlike many up here. So, I know this does not make this any easier from a fan standpoint, but rest assured, we will give ’your’ team all the support it deserves.
by Outlaws97 on Apr 19, 2011 6:57 AM MST reply actions 1 recs
At an average of 75 dollars a ticket (Canadian), which is the current estimate, it is highly unlikely the average Joe in Winnipeg is going to be dropping 375 dollars for tickets only, for the family to go see a hockey game.
Secondly, the Coyotes have an average attendance over the last four or five years that pretty much equals a sell out at the MTS Centre. So, we’re already giving them all the support you can.
Yes the prospective owner in Winnipeg is quite wealthy, but I wouldn’t for one second assume that means he’s willing to dump the family fortune into a losing enterprise year after year.
You may be giving them all the support in terms of #‘s of people in the seats (I will not argue whether they are actual #’s or inflated). The one figure that keeps getting missed (and far more important IMO) is that actual price being paid for tickets. Think about it. 12K in the seats @ Jobing @ an average of $35.00 is $420K. 12K in MTS (would likely be more) @ $65.00 is $780K. Multiply both of those by 41 and you get $17.22M for Jobing and $31.98M for MTS. See a difference? I do.
Gonna need alot more than that to allow Bettman to pay back some of those TV monies...
…if a team goes to a TV market smaller than Phoenix.
Just sayin’.
It's not what you've done but what you are doing that matters.
Maybe next year the Ice Surface at Jobing.com should be frozen with the tears of Winnipeg. - TimmyHate of FiveForHowling to a troll after it was alleged Coyote fans do not know how to ice skate.
by AlabamaJammer on Apr 21, 2011 11:32 AM MST up reply actions
Yeah, because all of those NBC Games of the Week slots will now have to be filled by some other team than Phoenix. Hell – how many times were the Coyotes even on Versus this season? The fact of the matter is that the Coyotes appear more often on CBC or TSN than on either of the American national broadcasters.
It’s been widely reported that the Coyotes lose in the tens of millions of dollars each season. Since the league owns the team, that’s upwards of $10 million that all of the other owners have to pool together out of their own revenues and profits to keep the Coyotes afloat. Do you really think that NBC paid $10 million per season extra because the Coyotes are in Phoenix, and not Winnipeg?
Still, as someone in VS/NBC, they have to be looking at this and saying they can get a refund...
…It doesn’t matter what kind of props were being given to the Coyotes. This has nothing to do with the finances of the NHL sans what they’ll have to give back if they cannot go to a larger TV market than Phoenix.
NBC paid $10m per season based on eyes on the TV. Considering where Winnipeg is and the barren ‘wasteland’ around it (aka lack of eyes on the TV) it wouldn’t matter how great Jets fans think their area/fanbase/etc is.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but it’s about the Benjamins, and Winnipeg doesn’t scream potential ad revenue to VS/NBC.
It's not what you've done but what you are doing that matters.
Maybe next year the Ice Surface at Jobing.com should be frozen with the tears of Winnipeg. - TimmyHate of FiveForHowling to a troll after it was alleged Coyote fans do not know how to ice skate.
by AlabamaJammer on Apr 21, 2011 6:23 PM MST up reply actions
Canadian teams produce 1/3 of the revenue in this league. That’s documented. Canadian teams have been carrying the water the past few seasons.
Canadian cities in the NHL:
Edmonton: 1,034,945
Calgary: 1,079,310
Vancouver: 2,116,581
Toronto: 5,113,149
Montreal: 3,635,571
Ottawa: 1,130,761
Notice something? Each of the six NHL hockey cities in Canada have a metro population of over 1 million people.
Winnipeg: 694,668
Also, the six individual NHL cities in Canada have populations bigger than Winnipeg’s entire metro area. So comparing Winnipeg to any other NHL city in Canada is useless, as Winnipeg’s size is no where near the size of the other cities (Which plays a part in why they make so much money).
Tucson's metro area is larger than Winnipeg's.
That is saying something.
(to be fair, Winnipeg itself is larger than Tucson itself… Tucson metro is helped by Oro Valley, Marana)
Per Mare, Per Terras
But we're comparing Winny vs PHX, not Canadian...
…for TV eyes, and Winny doesn’t cut it. Less eyes, less TV revenue. Sorry if your Jets can’t carry the potential.
Who cares what the Canadians do, we’re talking markets, and trying to spin this any other way is showing your lack of clarity, and your bias.
It's not what you've done but what you are doing that matters.
Maybe next year the Ice Surface at Jobing.com should be frozen with the tears of Winnipeg. - TimmyHate of FiveForHowling to a troll after it was alleged Coyote fans do not know how to ice skate.
by AlabamaJammer on Apr 22, 2011 6:54 PM MST up reply actions
AJ said "your Jets"
I was just thinking maybe he thought druumod was a Jets fan.
Per Mare, Per Terras
Nope, he's defending their position, thus the personalization.
It's not what you've done but what you are doing that matters.
Maybe next year the Ice Surface at Jobing.com should be frozen with the tears of Winnipeg. - TimmyHate of FiveForHowling to a troll after it was alleged Coyote fans do not know how to ice skate.
by AlabamaJammer on Apr 22, 2011 9:43 PM MST up reply actions
My apologies.
Missed the boat on that one.
by Mike Hurley on Apr 22, 2011 10:24 PM MST up reply actions
And really, again, I have to ask: How many times has NBC willingly aired the Coyotes since the lockout? How often are the Coyotes on VS? The Coyotes were a non-factor in the recent negotiations because they have been a non-factor on American television throughout their entire existence.
NBC didn’t do the deal, at that price, to have the Coyotes involved. At best, they were an afterthought.
But that is true of most teams in the Western Conference. When has NBC gone out of its way to show anyone that was not Washington, NY Rangers, Philly, Pitt, Detroit or Chicago? That’s the big hockey markets. The Coyotes may be the team that is struggling the most in revenue right now, but there are plenty of teams that are barely treading water based on the NHL’s current finances. The TV deal is about helping all of those franchises.
Support Coyotes Hockey - Five For Howling
(Oh, and go Philly teams as well!)
by Jordan Ellel on Apr 21, 2011 7:36 PM MST up reply actions
Vancouver and Montreal games, for what it’s worth, have been the highest-rated games on Versus so far in these playoffs, outdrawing Phoenix and Detroit in Canada and the US.
Don’t tell me that it’s important to NBC or VS that there be a team in Phoenix for TV purposes, is the point I’m making.
If you can show me where the Phoenix Coyotes have made money for either TV network though, go for it.
The Phoenix/Detroit series last year had very strong ratings for NBC. But that’s not the argument that I was making at all. If you want to frame an argument that way though, yes, Phoenix is a very important market for NBC/VS to consider – it’s the 12th largest TV market in the entire US (http://www.stationindex.com/tv/tv-markets). If there is a successful team in Phoenix that people want to watch and NBC wants to expand coverage to get more nationally televised games including late broadcasts on stations like USA, then they would like to be able to tap into a market as big as Phoenix.
Also, the Vancouver and Montreal games are drawing well in the US because it’s Boston and Chicago involved, not Vancouver and Montreal (although the rivalries between those teams helps).
Support Coyotes Hockey - Five For Howling
(Oh, and go Philly teams as well!)
by Jordan Ellel on Apr 22, 2011 3:04 PM MST up reply actions
Also, the Vancouver and Montreal games are drawing well in the US because it’s Boston and Chicago involved, not Vancouver and Montreal
Couldn’t this argument apply to your first point about the PHX/DET series?
I don’t doubt it at all. Dzuunmod asked a question and I tried to answer it.
Support Coyotes Hockey - Five For Howling
(Oh, and go Philly teams as well!)
by Jordan Ellel on Apr 22, 2011 6:10 PM MST up reply actions
Whatever man. I don’t know what your dog in this fight is, but you seem to want to reply to everything and anything. There’s nothing rationalizing about what I’m doing. You don’t think NBC wants people in the 12th largest TV market in the US watching their product?
Support Coyotes Hockey - Five For Howling
(Oh, and go Philly teams as well!)
by Jordan Ellel on Apr 22, 2011 6:11 PM MST up reply actions
The gross size of the market isn't what the issue is here.
Buffalo and Pittsburgh aren’t very high up that list, and yet they’re two of the most solid TV markets in the NHL
And they are two teams that have histories...
…and decent ownership behind them. Give the Coyotes a chance to do that before you give a failed city another chance to fail.
It's not what you've done but what you are doing that matters.
Maybe next year the Ice Surface at Jobing.com should be frozen with the tears of Winnipeg. - TimmyHate of FiveForHowling to a troll after it was alleged Coyote fans do not know how to ice skate.
by AlabamaJammer on Apr 22, 2011 9:47 PM MST up reply actions
Agree about how the Coyotes need a real chance
They haven’t had a dedicated Owner willing to work on the team for a few years. They could easily be an extremely popular team, except no one’s willing to give them that chance. Matt Hulzier sounds like a guy who likes hockey, and wants to genuinely own the Coyotes to help them out. The Coyotes can work out.
I want to clarify that I lack a position on this.
I couldn’t care less if the Coyotes move or not. I’m a Senators fan, so it doesn’t affect me (other than shortening my drive for their yearly western swing). So I have no qualms with the Coyotes existence.
To say the Sabres have decent ownership is a bit of a stretch. I would argue that the recent ownership in Buffalo is one of the most dysfunctional in the league. They were bankrupt. Rumoured to move. Hell, the owner even installed his kid as coach once. Yet, they survived. Perhaps this is to say the Coyotes can do the same through similar problems, perhaps it’s to discount the blind faith in a mystical ownership group that can instantly solve problems.
by Mike Hurley on Apr 22, 2011 10:32 PM MST up reply actions
I meant decent ownership in present tense....
It's not what you've done but what you are doing that matters.
Maybe next year the Ice Surface at Jobing.com should be frozen with the tears of Winnipeg. - TimmyHate of FiveForHowling to a troll after it was alleged Coyote fans do not know how to ice skate.
by AlabamaJammer on Apr 23, 2011 7:09 AM MST up reply actions
We'd showed you the facts
We’ve showed you that comparing Phoenix to Winnipeg is a dumb idea, and we’ve showed you that all of the highly profitable NHL cities are all cities that are, like, twice the size of Winnipeg.
What more do you want?
Comparing Winnipeg to Phoenix is lacking in common sense.
And yet it seems to be nearly all of what I’ve read. Winnipeg’s not as big as Phoenix. Winnipeg doesn’t have a TV market. Winnipeg is too cold. On and on. There’s two sides to this sword.
by Mike Hurley on Apr 22, 2011 10:33 PM MST up reply actions
This is what we're trying to get at:
I don’t know if it was you, but someone pointed out that Canada the source of 1/3 of the NHL’s revenue. All I’m trying to say is, that’s a dumb comparison, considering each of the six Canadian NHL cities have populations over 1 million people, whereas Winnipeg doesn’t.
I think I worded my post up there badly. All I want to say is that before everyone goes running back to Winnipeg (Where the team already failed once), the Coyotes need to be given a chance with a decent owner and decent management.
That was the other Sens fan above...
…not Mike.
It's not what you've done but what you are doing that matters.
Maybe next year the Ice Surface at Jobing.com should be frozen with the tears of Winnipeg. - TimmyHate of FiveForHowling to a troll after it was alleged Coyote fans do not know how to ice skate.
by AlabamaJammer on Apr 23, 2011 7:10 AM MST up reply actions
Of note,
Ottawa, Edmonton and Calgary barely have 1,000,000 people, while Winnipeg has 700,000. That is significant. Obviously going to a market that small is a huge risk. However it’s not doomed.
The idea that a team failing once is a harbinger of doom for any future team isn’t true. Ottawa had a team move. The Atlanta Flames left. The North Stars left. All have been replaced.
by Mike Hurley on Apr 23, 2011 10:28 AM MST up reply actions
Let's also keep in mind
That even 5% of Phoenix’s population is already 200X Winnipeg’s population. A good owner can make it happen.
This math is obviously wrong.
And the owner can’t put people in the seats. Look at Eugene Melnyk in Ottawa. He promised a dynasty. He’s gotten nowhere.
Yes, but the Coyotes
Haven’t had a chance to prove that a dedicated Owner can revive the franchise. That’s what I’ve been trying to say. If the Coyotes get a good owner and good management, which they’ve never had, then they’ll be fine.
And yes, I saw that math somewhere else, and re-posted it without thinking.
If a restaurant has bad management and an idiot owner...
It closes, no matter the potential, and no matter what the loyal customers want. It’s just business.
by Mike Hurley on Apr 24, 2011 12:12 PM MST up reply actions
Again:
The Coyotes will be successful if they get a good Owner.
Imagine this: That restaurant leaves to another city. In that new city is an untapped stream of new customers just waiting to be called. But, before even getting the chance to turn on that tap of new customers, they move back to the first city they were in, the one they originally failed in, just because all of a sudden some customers in that city are telling it that it will work there a second time.
Make sense? Not really.
Does a local pub ever think it’s a brilliant idea to move to a bigger city because more people = more customers?
Did the Jets originally fail, or was the team forced out?
Is the Canadian dollar over twenty percent higher today than it was in 96?
Do these points fall on deaf ears?
only when at the edge of the page. =)
by ChadInGlendale on Apr 25, 2011 10:48 AM MST up reply actions
That phrase and," you heard me."
are both my pet peeves. It makes you look like an audist.
Per Mare, Per Terras
All I’m saying with that is that market size doesn’t equate directly with success. But every time I say that, I’m shouted with, “But Phoenix is a really, really big city!”
I feel like for all you accuse me of being hard-headed, you guys are doing the exact same thing.
You are right, market size doesn't equate success...
…but it seems like you’re ignoring the fact that market size is an issue in this matter too. If I’m misreading you I do apologize.
It's not what you've done but what you are doing that matters.
Maybe next year the Ice Surface at Jobing.com should be frozen with the tears of Winnipeg. - TimmyHate of FiveForHowling to a troll after it was alleged Coyote fans do not know how to ice skate.
by AlabamaJammer on Apr 23, 2011 2:53 PM MST up reply actions
MH is offering market value for the team in Glendale, which unfortunately is not what the NHL needs to get for the team. Hence the deal between Glendale and MH.
MH is also assuming a lot of risk in guaranteeing to keep the team in Glendale until 2041.
There is plenty that he is offering, including profit sharing, so in essence he is showing he is committed to the area.
real issue!
The real issue is this franchise has lost large sums of money for 16 straight years. Why would any buyer want to buy a money losing business. Matt Hulsizer understands this which is why his offer, netted out, has him receiving 100MM from the COG to buy their team.
Or…..
He sees that the previous owners have all failed to market the team & run the business end of the team correctly? Perhaps he feels he can make it work when the others haven’t & enjoys a challenge.
When he gets the team, he is responsible for it so all future losses are his to incur. Not sure how you have him pocketing $100mill of a $197mill deal when the team is being bought for $160mill.
And if you’d listened to the Cupcake Summit, you’d know the team actually made money in one of their years in the valley. And yes, it matters because 1 if a huge difference from none.
by ChadInGlendale on Apr 25, 2011 10:16 AM MST up reply actions
Getting ahead of oneself
Well, how generous of you, Outlaws97!
But before gloating , know that the NHL might still have a trick or two up its sleeve. There’s a lot of silence going on and a lot of genuine, full sized, American arenas ready for a team to occupy them. And pretend all you want otherwise, Canadian fans and its media know well that the league will go to any length to avoid adding Canadian teams. In fact, that’s why the Canadian media hates Bettman et al so much. He and the American team owners need to have as many US based teams as possible to pass the NHL off as a major league sport. Of course, Canadians have an unhealthy fascination with hockey that blinds them to the reality of professional sports. This obsession has already allowed one, and maybe a second, Canadian major league baseball team to leave despite a history of baseball in Canada that spans most of the previous century. Did you know that Babe Ruth hit his first major league home run into Lake Ontario? But, hey, who needs the World Series, followed by hundreds of millions when you can have the Stanley Cup followed by a tenth as many, right? The word “parochial” comes to mind.
So when Canadian NHL teams become financially uncertain – Edmonton is on the rocks already, Ottawa might follow now that it’s just another small market team with little talent left on the ice – rest assured the NHL will try to quietly allow (encourage?) them to find American homes all the while proclaiming to support them.
If the Coyotes end up in Winnipeg, and after the initial excitement wears off as the team no longer draws its 15,000 fans (or 17,500 if the city blows $60,000,000 to add 2500 additional seats) just recall what they say about he who laughs last.
Will Nu Jets fans then support “their” team in, say, Houston?
Thanks Justin1985
Bob99 didn’t understand a single word I said. The part he doesn’t know is that the MTS Centre in WPG generates revenues that would rival the top 5 NHL current arenas right now. The Arena is operated buy the prospective owner. Sorry, I was not trying to offend, but simply Sympathize with the fans in Glendale. Bob99 simply views Wpg as the enemy. Too Bad! Hulsizer is the enemy. He is the guy trying to take money out of the pockets of the good folks of Arizona.
As an outside observer
This is probably the closest I’ve seen to my own view of this matter. Is it annoying that GWI has taken the view of the whole funding mechanism? Sure. But their view isn’t exactly wrong. This deal Glendale has concocted may in fact be unconstitutional (and IMO probably is) and GWI is within their rights to call the city on it. And at it’s very core, the idea of Glendale essentially buying a large portion of the Coyotes for a multi-millionaire is insane. Hulsizer has more than enough money to buy the team several times over if he so chooses. Why in the name of all that is holy, if he has faith in the team, is he not paying himself rather than essentially robbing the taxpayers of Glendale?
The most basic reason is that for him to move that quantity of cash would require liquidating a large number of assets that is never advisable if there is an alternative source. He could go to the bond market independently, but Glendale should be able to raise money at a much better interest rate than Hulsizer could as an individual – hence the municipal bonds. What people are forgetting is that Hulsizer is going to be paying back the City of Glendale yearly rent on Jobing.com Arena for 30 years – the City will make back this money many, many, many times over.
As for whether the deal is constitutional, it’s a real gray area. The city is allowed to pay money to a private enterprise for services as long as it’s not disproportional to market value. How does one set the market value for operating a multi-purpose arena and the parking areas around it because that is essential what the city is paying Hulsizer for. I would argue that since this deal is pretty much identical to what Reinsdorf was going to receive (which GWI did not oppose despite it containing a much stronger out provision for Reinsdorf to move the team if he wasn’t making money within 5 years), then this is what the market rate is. So I’m not sure what GWI’s argument is. If they were as confident as some feel that their constitutional claim was accurate they (1) would have brought suit seeking an injunction, and (2) not completely changed their stance when several commentators challenged them directly on their position. They are getting everything they want by the deal sitting in limbo.
I agree that if Hulsizer really wants the deal to get done, he probably could find a way to raise the cash himself – but he negotiated a deal in the market, in open meetings according to all requirements of the law. I’m not surprised that he doesn’t feel that he should have to renegotiate the deal with a third party that is not involved in the sale or ownership of the franchise and whose sign-off is not required (or at least should not be required) to consummate the transaction.
Support Coyotes Hockey - Five For Howling
(Oh, and go Philly teams as well!)
by Jordan Ellel on Apr 19, 2011 8:13 PM MST up reply actions
Because....
IMO…The COG is in a major bind and all of the potential suitors over the years, knew it. And so does Hulsizer.
Before he came in at the last minute, there was no hope for the Coyotes after Ice Edge didn’t pan out. And Reinsdorf was going to move the team in 5 years, which wouldn’t have helped out anyone in the long run.
At least Hulsizer has shown the commitment to stay here for the long haul. However, he is a business man who is not dumb. If he can make a decent deal for everyone involved (even himself) he will. Rebbekah Sanders from the AZ Republic did a recent article that broke down what it would cost Glendale and Hulsizer both to do this deal.
The way I add up all the monies listed in the article, both Hulsizer and COG would make out on the deal in the long haul (30 years), even using the lowest estimates of revenue.
In a perfect world, Hulsizer would buy the team outright and GWI can go screw themselves. But to buy the Coyotes, especially after these last two turbulent years, is a financial risk. Hence why Hulsizer won’t pony up all the cash.
The economy is on the upswing. The Coyotes are finally playing good again. The prospect of having a hockey loving owner that will make the Coyotes a consistent winner will bring the fans back.
Hence why Hulsizer won’t pony up all the cash.
But if he’s not willing to pony up the cash, he shouldn’t be buying the team. That’s been the case in every other sports team purchase for the last century. Considering that fact you can see why people like GWI and those like them are complaining about this purchase. It’s unprecedented for a city to essentially buy a team and then give it to a multi-millionaire thus taking on a lot of the risk of said purchase and not having any control of the asset which they themselves just paid a larger portion of the price for… If Hulsizer wants the team, he realistically should be taking on the risk and paying for it himself as every owner in pro sports other than himself has done. Allowing him to do this sets a very bad precedent IMO for the NHL and potentially all sports teams. It’s bad enough that cities are held hostage for part of arenas and stadiums, this could open the door for the same predatory tactic to be used for the sale of teams.
by athletics68 on Apr 19, 2011 11:13 PM MST up reply actions
That’s the thing. The businessperson or entity, not government, should be taking on the risk in cases like this.
by dzuunmod on Apr 19, 2011 11:18 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Agreed, but everyone has slipped on the slope...
…play the game or lose the tax revenues.
It's not what you've done but what you are doing that matters.
Maybe next year the Ice Surface at Jobing.com should be frozen with the tears of Winnipeg. - TimmyHate of FiveForHowling to a troll after it was alleged Coyote fans do not know how to ice skate.
by AlabamaJammer on Apr 20, 2011 12:32 PM MST up reply actions
It’s not unprecedented. The city of Anaheim will issue 75 million in bonds to bring the Kings from Sacramento. One way or another cities across this nation are ponying up cash to lure or keep professional sports teams.
Local and State governments pony up cash all the time for Arena’s. You’d be hard pressed to find an arena that a city didn’t pony up the cash for.
The city of Winnipeg even ponied up 35 – 40 million for construction of the MTS Centre.
You have a very valid point Mike
Cities do not want to lose their teams to relocation. Issuing bonds is not something new.
Wasn’t it not too long that Scottsdale bent over backwards for the San Francisco Giants after they threatened to move their spring training site?How about the Cubs in Mesa and their new park? The Diamondbacks new facility?
Btw Mike- Great analogy about parking and the rights that go with it. Makes perfect sense. Maybe Goldwater may understand that at today’s meeting.
@athletics68- GWI has never had an issue with ANY of the bond issues/subsidies given to build new stadiums for baseball spring training sites in the valley. You have to ask yourself then why is it they have a major issue with a hockey deal? Why didn’t they have the same litigation fervor with baseball? And why has no one really looked into why that is and their lack of fervor? Cities sold bonds for those projects. GWI has an agenda. I’m not quite sure what it is but it sure isn’t looking after Arizona taxpayers.
AND when the hell does a “think tank” become a litigation machine? Kind of goes against what a real think tank is suppose to be. Smart people coming up with good ideas or to solve complex problems.
They really should change their name to Olsen and Associates. Then they can have cheesy ambulance chasing ads on TV.
Barry Goldwater is spinning in his grave.
The city of Anaheim
Is issuing bonds to upgrade their own arena (the city of Anaheim owns Honda Center for clarification) to NBA standards in hopes of luring a team. That is a very common thing to do. They’re not to buying a team directly. Very big difference. As I said, city money to purchase a team directly is unprecedented and has never occurred at the big 4 level in at least the last 110 years.
I confess that I really don’t know much about this situation, but since the issue is whether or not the deal would violate the Constitution of Arizona, I wouldn’t think that other states’ decisions could act as legal precedent? Certainly not in different countries, in any event.
Oh, you better believe that's a paddling.
No it wouldn't.
Not only different state (so different constitution and law) but also a different use of bonds completely. One is being used to fund a large portion of a purchase of a sports team (which is unprecedented), and the other is simply funding upgrades to a city owned building (a VERY common use of bonds and/or public money).
Hey outlaws97, maybe you can clarify...
Maybe there is some misinformation here, but it sounds like MTS Center in Winnipeg has a lower seating capacity than the Coyotes’ facility in Glendale. Is this true? Secondly, you indicated the MTS Center generates enough revenue to be on par with the current Top 5 money-earners in the NHL right now — why is this an issue? I mean, what do they do in Winnipeg that can’t be done (or hasn’t been done) in Glendale? And if we’re to compare apples to apples, could a newly-reconstituted Winnipeg Jets team generate more revenue than the current Phoenix-based team? If it’s true that MTS Center is smaller, then those who say a hockey team in Winnipeg could not possibly make as much money as a hockey team in Phoenix have a legitimate gripe…
This kind of information is on Wikipedia! Yes, the MTS Centre has a lower capacity (15,015) than Jobing.com Arena (17,534). But if you think of it in terms of actual attendance, it’s a different issue. The Coyotes haven’t attracted more than 15,015 people per game to their games since 2005-06, when their ticket prices were an outrageously low $27 apiece on average.
If it’s true that MTS Center is smaller, then those who say a hockey team in Winnipeg could not possibly make as much money as a hockey team in Phoenix have a legitimate gripe…
If the owners in Winnipeg chose to charge as little as the Coyotes do, then you’re correct, their revenue ceiling would be lower than it is in Phoenix. In 2009-2010 (the last year for which I can find numbers), the Coyotes charged an average ticket price of $37.45. That was the 4th-cheapest ticket in the NHL that season (only Buffalo, Dallas and Tampa Bay had cheaper average ticket prices). So, we do the math:
$37.45 (average ticket price)
x14,875 (I’m going to be generous and use the Coyotes average game attendance from 2008-09, because it seriously cratered the following year)
=$557,069 (average take per game)
So what would Winnipeg have to do to improve upon that? Well, if they sold out every night, they’d need an average ticket price of $37.10 (or even lower actually, when you take into account that one Canadian dollar buys almost $1.05 US dollars at the moment).
If Winnipeg charged the league average 2009-10 ticket price of $51.41, (every existing Canadian team, by the way, charges more than the league average already), they’d need to average 10,800 people per game in order to pull in the same kind of revenue the Coyotes already do. And none of this considers the increased TV, merchandising and other revenues a franchise in Winnipeg would score. Whatever FS Arizona pays now for rights to the Coyotes games, I guarantee you Sportsnet would pay more for the rights to a Winnipeg team that would instantly draw double or triple the local ratings.
Something that should be noted about Winnipeg is that it's in the middle of nowhere.
The MTS Centre was designed with good acoustics, making it notable on the concert scene. The fact that nearly every east-west tour stops there (simply due to geography and logistics) generates a ton of revenue. It’s sort of the same reason big-name acts like Iron Maiden or Metallica play in the much, much smaller city of Saskatoon. Cities are few and far between.
by Mike Hurley on Apr 20, 2011 11:00 PM MST up reply actions
Of course, Canadians have an unhealthy fascination with hockey that blinds them to the reality of professional sports. This obsession has already allowed one, and maybe a second, Canadian major league baseball team to leave despite a history of baseball in Canada that spans most of the previous century. Did you know that Babe Ruth hit his first major league home run into Lake Ontario? But, hey, who needs the World Series, followed by hundreds of millions when you can have the Stanley Cup followed by a tenth as many, right?
So what if Canadians don’t like baseball? How does that have anything to do with the Coyotes situation?
Maybe if people in Phoenix had an “unhealthy fascination with hockey” you guys wouldn’t have to worry about losing your team.
by Brad Ackerson on Apr 20, 2011 9:55 AM MST up reply actions
In the long-run, the NHL stands to gain more by keeping the Coyotes in Phoenix
Everyone needs to keep in mind that a lot of Phoenix’s population is made up of immigrants from other cities. That’s why, whenever we play the Red Wings, a lot of the crowd is made up of their fans. The Coyotes just need a dedicated owner. Why do the Suns attract so many fans? Because after 40 years, they’ve grown a dedicated fan-base. Why do the Cardinals attract so many fans? For two reasons:
1) They’re an NFL team
2) They’ve got stable owners (The Bidwells)
I know that some of you may not like the Bidwells, and that’s a whole different matter, but you have to give them this: They’re stable. They’ve owned the team since 1932. Why am I telling you this? To show you that having stable owners really helps a franchise/team out. As for the Dbacks, they attract fans when they’re winning (Bandwagonish, I know, but that’s just how it works).
Basically, what I’m trying to say is, a team will do good if they have a dedicated owner. They just need time. Sure, Winnipeg would probably have a high attendance rate for their games. But in the long-run, Phoenix will be more profitable, because of the fact that it has 6 million citizens. The targeted fan-base and media attention would be much bigger here.
In the end, I want the Coyotes to stay in Phoenix. But, maybe Winnipeg could get their own hockey team. I don’t agree that the Coyotes are Winnipeg’s team. Sure, they used to in Winnipeg, but the Indianapolis Colts (NFL) used to be in Baltimore, and no one in Baltimore ever claims that the Colts are still theirs, do they? Or no one in St. Louis claims the Cardinals are still their’s, do they? My point exactly.
I totally agree with you Skii
That’s all we’ve wanted for 15 years…is a stable, dedicated, and comitted ownership. It will work.
Oh, and there still is some grumbling from the old Colt fans. :)
FYI- I was living in Maryland when the Colts sneaked out that night.
They may not grumble, but you better not mention the Colts to them…trust me, my wife is from there.
Support Coyotes Hockey - Five For Howling
(Oh, and go Philly teams as well!)
by Jordan Ellel on Apr 19, 2011 9:31 PM MST up reply actions
In case anyone's still reading...
For what it’s worth, my father is from Brooklyn and he’s STILL pissed at the Dodgers’ leaving, even after the Mets moved in and won the World Series.
If fifty million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing. - Anatole France
but the Indianapolis Colts (NFL) used to be in Baltimore, and no one in Baltimore ever claims that the Colts are still theirs, do they? Or no one in St. Louis claims the Cardinals are still their’s, do they? My point exactly.
Your point is unclear. Are you saying that if a team leaves from a city, and then that city gets another team to replace the one that left that plays in the same league, people won’t be bitter? Yeah, I’ll agree with that. Something tells me that if the Ravens did not exist, people in Baltimore might not yet be quite so over the loss of the Colts. Same goes with Winnipeg: if that city got another franchise, they would get over the loss of their old team pretty quick.
But in the long-run, Phoenix will be more profitable, because of the fact that it has 6 million citizens. The targeted fan-base and media attention would be much bigger here.
If this were the case, then the Rangers, Blackhawks and Kings would be, by all measures, the most successful teams in the league by a longshot. For that matter, Dallas, Miami and Atlanta would all be home to teams raking in profits by the millions. As it stands, no team is more profitable than the Toronto Maple Leafs. So, market size doesn’t correlate directly with profits and media attention. The Rangers will simply never get the media attention the Yankees or Giants do, and they will never be as profitable as the Maple Leafs.
I’m not saying that necessarily means that Winnipeg would be a better place for the club than Phoenix, but anyone with any common sense knows that you can’t just look at market size and declare it game over.
I made that point
To counter all the Winnipeggers claiming the Coyotes are their team. No, they’re not. I’m pretty sure once a team moves, it’s not your cities team anymore. That’s why we’re not the Winnipeg Jets. They moved in 1996. It’s annoying reading all the Winnipeggers comments about how the “Jets” should “come home”. 1) They’re not the Jets and 2) They wouldn’t be “going home” if they moved to Winnipeg. The Coyotes’ home is Phoenix, and that’s where they belong.
What I mean when I say that the team will be more profitable in Phoenix in the long run is even though Winnipeg will be pysched to have a team, and probably sell a ton of tickets, Phoenix is a larger market, and therefor has more potential to gather a larger fan base. Phoenix has 6 million citizens. Winnipeg has 150,000. TV attention will generally be bigger for a Phoenix team over a Winnipeg team. I have nothing against the city of Winnipeg, but as the bigger team, Phoenix will most probably get more attention.
While the Maple Leafs may be the most profitable team, they’re in Toronto: A city with a population of about 2.5 million people. Here are the top 10 most profitable teams in the NHL:
1) Toronto
2) New York
3) Detroit
4) Montreal
5) Dallas
6) Philadelphia
7) Boston
8) Colorado
9) Vancouver
10) Los Angeles
Notice something? They’re all from huge cities. Comparing Toronto to Winnipeg doesn’t make sense, as they’re a much bigger city. So like I said, population plays a part in profits.
How do you know which are the most profitable teams in the league? Most teams do not open their books. Do you have a link or, like, anything at all to back that up?
Phoenix has 6 million citizens. Winnipeg has 150,000. TV attention will generally be bigger for a Phoenix team over a Winnipeg team. I have nothing against the city of Winnipeg, but as the bigger team, Phoenix will most probably get more attention.
You can say this all you want, but just saying it over and over does not make it so. Here are the final local ratings from the NHL last season in American cities. Here is a similar list from the year before that includes the Canadian teams. Notice anything? The top 9 markets with the highest viewership include all six Canadian teams. Only Pittsburgh, Chicago and Detroit (teams that not coincidentally have all won recent championships) are able to outdraw even Ottawa and Edmonton. Think about that for a minute: The Ottawa Senators outdraw the New York Rangers in local television.
Where are your numbers? I feel like you’re just making this stuff up.
For that matter, in terms of franchise valuations, Forbes has all of the Canadian teams in the top-20 (Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver in the top-10, and Calgary, Edmonton and Ottawa in the middle-10). Meanwhile, your bottom-10 looks like this: Buffalo, Florida, St. Louis, Carolina, Columbus, Islanders, Nashville, Tampa Bay, Atlanta and Phoenix.
Many of the drags on the league have a few things in common. Want me to spell it out?
again with missed points.
They’re all from huge cities. Comparing Toronto to Winnipeg doesn’t make sense, as they’re a much bigger city. So like I said, population plays a part in profits.
I should put that as my sig as a counter troll measure.
Per Mare, Per Terras
Being located in a huge city doesn’t help much when no one pays big money to go to the games, or watches them on TV. I understand that big city teams are, ultimately, the ones that will be the most profitable in any sports league.
The problem here is that there appear to be many big cities in the United States that just don’t care for the sport. Again: Ottawa and Edmonton have higher ticket prices, more people in the arena and higher TV ratings than many supposed big market franchises in the US. Population plays a part, absolutely, but clearly it’s not everything. If it was, then Phoenix, Atlanta, Miami and others would all be among the biggest revenue generating franchises in the league.
In fact, those three are drains on the rest of the franchises. How much longer should the profitable franchises continue to support them? 1 year? 5 years? 10 years? Just give us a date so that we know when it is the argument can be over, either way.
Being located in a huge city definitely helps
If you look at the list I gave you, all of those cities are huge. I’m pretty sure Edmonton is the smallest NHL city, and they have a population of 1.1 million. To re-phrase that, every NHL city has a population over 1 million. In fact, I’m pretty sure every major sports city has a population over 1 million, unless you count Green Bay (Packers, NFL), and that definitely doesn’t count, because an NFL team could sell out a game anywhere.
You’re right, population isn’t everything, but it sure as heck is a lot. To the NHL, Phoenix is a much more desirable place to have a team for many reasons. One of those is the Coyotes attendance has gone up. In fact, season ticket renewal is at 83% right now. Also, the Phoenix sports fan base is growing heavily. Traditionally, people in Phoenix have been fans of the cities they came from, but now, many people are becoming dedicated fans. Just look at the Arizona Cardinals.
All in all, I’m sure Winnipeg could sell out some games, but to the NHL, Phoenix makes a lot more sense, and for good reasons.
And the other thing is that it’s a nice list that Skii put together there. It would be even nicer if he would tell us where he got it from.
Phoenix is a larger market, and therefor has more potential to gather a larger fan base.
This is correct.
I wholeheartedly believe that, given two carbon copies of next year, this franchise being in Winnipeg would earn more dollars than this franchise in Phoenix.
However, Winnipeg’s potential earnings cap is, right now, significantly smaller than Phoenix’s
5% of Phoenix’s population being fans is equal to 200% of Winnipeg’s entire population. In the short run, that doesn’t matter because Winnipeg would sell out and would be able to draw in more money on ticket prices, but the long-term potential in Phoenix is massive from a business standpoint when compared to that particular Canadian city. Being able to turn that portion into rabid season-ticket holders and an even bigger portion into television watchers is going to be a challenge for Phoenix and it would be a risk from an investor to take, but pulling it off would yield huge results.
by J.J. from Kansas on Apr 20, 2011 10:55 AM MST up reply actions
I take your general point, but…
5% of Phoenix’s population being fans is equal to 200% of Winnipeg’s entire population.
So let’s see. Winnipeg’s CMA population is roughly 700,000. Double that (to get to 200%) and you’ve got 1.4 million.
Phoenix’s CMA population is about 4.2 million. 5% of that is… 210,000. By my math, your numbers aren’t anywhere close to being correct. Maybe you meant something else?
And again: Yes, Phoenix has more potential. But for 15 years now, we’ve been waiting to see this potential. It hasn’t happened yet.
As I said in another thread, if someone is willing to buy the team straight-up and keep them in Phoenix, let them do it tomorrow. If not, let the wealthiest man in Canada buy them and move them somewhere else.
A couple of questions: How long should the market get? How many years? And if the Phoenix Coyotes are such a great business opportunity – if there is so much potential there – why aren’t astute billionaires lining up to buy them and keep the team where it is?
Phoenix’s CMA population is about 4.2 million. 5% of that is… 210,000. By my math, your numbers aren’t anywhere close to being correct. Maybe you meant something else?
I was building off the 6-million to 150,000 ratios joked about above. But ok, let’s get technical.
17% of Phoenix’s population is bigger than 100% of Winnipeg’s
That’s not just “potential” it’s POTENTIAL.
A couple of questions: How long should the market get? How many years? And if the Phoenix Coyotes are such a great business opportunity – if there is so much potential there – why aren’t astute billionaires lining up to buy them and keep the team where it is?
1.) The market should get until the rest of the league is tired of ponying up the cash for it. As a fan of the game of hockey more than the business of hockey, I don’t really give two shits about whether the Coyotes are profitable as long as the league is stable. Since league profits have gone up significantly over the past five years, I’d say that’s stable. Let them decide how long to wait on a financial gamble.
2.) I don’t have a perfect answer for that, just a counter-question. If Winnipeg were such a great haven for hockey, then why is there only one rich man in Canada willing to pony up the cash to move them there? If it were such a great proposition, why hasn’t the BoG already voted to put them there?
by J.J. from Kansas on Apr 20, 2011 11:35 AM MST up reply actions
On the first point, I’d say that it sure seems like we’re coming to that breaking point, but I guess we’ll have to wait and see.
For question #2, I’d say that it’s kind of pointless to throw your hat into the ring when the richest guy in the country has already done so. If for whatever reason, Ken Thomson were to withdraw his interest, others might step in to fill the void, but I couldn’t say for sure. And as for the BoG, have you ever seen anyone as unwilling to admit a mistake as the leadership of this league? If you can point me to one single instance of Bettman admitting a mistake, large or small, I’d love to see it. Until then, he’s a stubborn, stubborn man who often persists with his logic even when presented with evidence that contradicts it.
And as for the BoG, have you ever seen anyone as unwilling to admit a mistake as the leadership of this league? If you can point me to one single instance of Bettman admitting a mistake, large or small, I’d love to see it. Until then, he’s a stubborn, stubborn man who often persists with his logic even when presented with evidence that contradicts it.
A fair and incredibly accurate point.
I understand that at some point, there has to be a breaking point where even though Emperor Bettman is whispering “Alles gut” in everybody’s ears, there are enough people who said “wait a minute” and pull the chute on him (which, although I have zero stories that outright back this thought up, it seems that a lot of the talk about the league’s desires coming into the next round of CBA talks hint that this may actually be happening and that there may be factions forming amongst the owners).
But, I also think that the concept of the team’s “15 years of failure in the desert” needs to be met with a whole lot of context. It’s easy to dismiss it as just a thought that hockey doesn’t belong in Arizona in the first place, but that ignores a whole slew of just horrible decisions, half-truths, and whole lies from the start of the process. I think hockey can work in non-traditional markets and is working in non-traditional markets (The Forbes data is a good starting point, but like you said yourself, the books are private for most clubs and that data is based on numbers that don’t tell the whole story. Do you believe that the Capitals operated at a net loss of more than $9M last season?)
It’s currently not working in Phoenix, but I think the Hulsizer deal could work. I personally don’t have a problem with a city that wants to raise money to keep a team. If that doesn’t work, it’s Glendale’s problem.
by J.J. from Kansas on Apr 20, 2011 12:15 PM MST up reply actions
Can’t argue with any of this.
Honestly, while I think that Winnipeg would at least be addition by subtraction for the league, I can’t argue (and I have said this elsewhere) that they would be a sure-thing, slam-dunk profit centre for the league. Anyone who does argue that is being ridiculous.
Selfishly, what I see when I envision a team in Winnipeg is another rabid fanbase added to the league overnight, a local media that would be singularly-focused on hockey like only a handful of others in the NHL currently are, and the potential for a really nice story. I think it would be fun, more than anything else.
More fun than highlights lower-bowl attendance that on some nights is patchier than a 15-year old’s beard.
I agree, Winnipeg would have a good fan-base
But, what I’m arguing is, taking a team out of Phoenix and giving it to Winnipeg would be a disaster. Phoenix supports sports extremely well. It would be a shame to take hockey out now, right when things are starting to pick up.
Phoenix has a ton of potential to support a hockey team. I’ll support giving Winnipeg a team, but not the Coyotes. They have too much potential to be taken out at this point.
J.J. is right on target with his comments about the whole they tried it failed argument. From day one this town hasn’t gotten a fair shake product wise. The obstructed view seats, the move, the mismanagement of the team and picks, and finally the last 2 years of turmoil.
The Artist Formerly Known as CP2Devil.
Associate Editor at Five For Howling.
Yes, we've been waiting for the Coyotes to turn a profit
But keep in mind that the Coyotes have never had a stable owner or ownership group, and have had bad management up until last year.
Phoenix has supported minor league hockey teams well in the past. But, after 15 years of a badly-run franchise, the fans need a little more coaxing than usual to come to the games.
It can work in Phoenix. They just need a good Owner.
your views are so one-sided that its not even worth trying to argue.
the fact of the matter is that nobody except those of us who live in phoenix and love hockey know if it will work here. When i moved here, there was one competitive travel team in the entire city to try out for. Now there are leagues, and high school hockey, and more rinks. Would this be possible without the Coyotes? nope. The interest is there, but 13 years of losing and poor management will leave a bitter taste in a fair weather fan’s mouth. Maybe that’s why the last year ‘s attendance numbers in Winnipeg were around 11,000. The Coyotes averaged below 13,000 only once, so if you want to argue attendance numbers, just look at the figures. Sure there were some pathetic games here in the Valley with sub 10000 fans, but the big picture shows that winning will solve all of the problems, and thats something that has just started happening. Oh and if you think that its a Phoenix problem, look at Chicago’s attendance from 2003-2006, or Detroit’s in the early 80’s (maybe late 70s). Its amazing what a few stars and winning seasons can do for a team and its profitability. I would bet that 15 years of subpar hockey in Winnipeg would result in terrible attebdance as well… In fact, it already happened.
You would do well to read the rest of the comments I left in this thread. Much of what you say has already been addressed.
I’m not saying that to dismiss you, just to point out that…
-The only season Winnipeg went under 13,000 average was the last season, when everyone knew they were moving
-Winning is zero-sum in sports, and not everyone can win all the time, therefore “winning” as part of your business plan is a terrible idea
-Chicago was a hockey town prior to 2003 and most people felt that good ownership would rejuvenate the already-existing fanbase. That sense just doesn’t exist with Phoenix. (And also, during those bad seasons in Chicago, the Blackhawks continued to charge well over the league average price for tickets. Phoenix has never come close to charging the league average.)
Chicago was a hockey town prior to 2003 and most people felt that good ownership would rejuvenate the already-existing fanbase. That sense just doesn’t exist with Phoenix.
If I understand you correctly, you’re saying that no one thinks the Coyotes can be rejuvinated, even if they get a new Owner. Am I right? If so, that’s ridiculous. A new owner will change everything. The Coyotes have been playing for two seasons not knowing their future. The fans have been coming for two years not knowing their future. For all of the Coyotes stay in Phoenix, they haven’t had dedicated Owners, and dedicated management.
The amount of tickets sold has started to increase. Look it up, the Coyotes are starting to sell a lot more tickets than they used to. Now that they’re doing good, people are coming. If they get an Owner, even more people will come, knowing that they’re going to watch a stable owner.
"The fans have been coming for two years"
A few have, but there just haven’t been nearly enough of them.
by athletics68 on Apr 20, 2011 10:09 PM MST up reply actions
Our average attendance this year was 14,446
That’s an increase from last year. Our ticket sales are increasing, our season ticket sales are increasing, and our fan base is increasing.
Like I said, with an Owner, things could change completely.
I'm not sure if cross-sport parallels are applicable...
But the Blue Jays recently got a new owner, and they’re still mediocre and still don’t draw huge crowds.
by Mike Hurley on Apr 20, 2011 11:09 PM MST up reply actions
This is true.
But Toronto is averaging 51% so far this year. The caveats about small sample size apply, but this includes a home opener and a little series against the Yanks.
by Mike Hurley on Apr 20, 2011 11:13 PM MST up reply actions
True
But Toronto is a hockey town, right? I’m sure the fans will start coming, though, because the Blue Jays are doing great.
It’s a hockey town for sure. But those hockey fans don’t have much else to do right now (ba-zing!). I’m just not convinced that there’s any guaranteed method to success and stability. Winning teams, historical teams, seemingly stable teams.. They’ve all packed up and moved.
by Mike Hurley on Apr 20, 2011 11:27 PM MST up reply actions
Some of those moves were because of stadium disputes
The Minnesota Vikings (NFL) might move to L.A., even though they went to the NFC Championship two years ago. Why? Their stadium is nearing the end of it’s contract with them. That’s also why the Dodgers left Brooklyn. Two years before that, they had won the World Series. But, they had an argument with the city over their stadium, and the rest is history.
I thought the issue was
GWI trying to block off any offer made by Matt Hulzier, because they want the team to go to Winnipeg, because they’re a Canadian group.
That isn't the issue at all?
I hadn’t heard of the GWI until this ordeal.
by Mike Hurley on Apr 21, 2011 10:26 PM MST up reply actions
It's not the issue?
GWI is the whole reason the Coyotes haven’t found an owner yet. Glendale and Matt Hulzier had a deal finalized until GWI blocked it.
Well yeah I don't deny that the GWI is the issue.
And perhaps it’s just my ignorance to inside jokes. But they’re clearly not a Canadian group.
by Mike Hurley on Apr 22, 2011 10:56 AM MST up reply actions
No, I was saying that Chicago over the course of decades had already proven itself as a hockey town. That just hasn’t happened yet with Phoenix. And that’s not a shot at the city, it’s just the fact of the matter.
When Phoenix attendance hits the league average, and Phoenix ticket prices also hit the league average, I’ll eat my words.
Well, you seem to have caught my drift...
14,000+ fans this year average, and this is the second straight year that the Coyotes “are leaving”. Why would someone just starting to watch the sport support a team that has been in flux for 2 straight years? I’ll even say 3 years because the previous owner did a terrible job the year he filed bankruptcy and everyone knew something was going on with the team. They didn’t even do it in the hockey haven of Canada, so you expect Phoenix to? The truth is, you have absolutely zero idea as to what the city of Phoenix is all about. Yes, a winning culture will create more fans. Look at the Cardinals. An NFL franchise that had 40+ years of losing culture and a dwindling fanbase. The ownership did not change, but the owner’s son decided to be more aggressive when he got the reigns and helped put together a team worth watching and began marketing. They have sold out every game since. Even with their abysmal record this year. So don’t tell me that winning wouldn’t change anything. You want a hockey example? Pittsburgh and Washington. I’m sick and tired of people who don’t know a lick about Phoenix and the people here talking about them like they do. Have you ever been here? Have you been to a Suns game? Phoenix has never had a fair shot, attendance was fine when they first got here, and only declined after years and years of horrible on and off ice product. Is that a way to build a fanbase? Every star was traded away that could be marketable. Hockey can’t work in the desert? Well I would say that since a ton of retired and current hockey players come here and live here for the weather, golf, and city, that it can. Youth hockey in the valley is stronger than ever. Hockey has grown exponentially in the desert and you don’t see it because all you care to look at is attendance, which isn’t even the lowest in the league, even with the shithole situation we were put in.
As far as corporate sponsors are concerned, I am able to make marketing decisions within my company and although we do not advertise with any sports franchise, we would treat it the same way as we do our other marketing strategies, long-term. Why would a major corporate sponsor feel comfortable investing in a team that the media says is leaving every other day for two straight years? I know I wouldn’t, there isn’t the stability that a stable owner would bring to alleviate those concerns. Again, your view is on a micro scale. Outsiders and the media have made this far worse for the Coyotes than it should have been. A committed ownership group that is dedicated and passionate towards hockey (which we really have never experienced) would correct this issue in a year or two.
I’ve never said anywhere that the team has really had a fair shot. It hasn’t. What I’m saying is that right now, here, today, it’s going to be a struggle.
I was a Montreal Expos fan, and I watched fire sales every year that took away stars way bigger than any of the players who have left Phoenix. Hall-of-fame calibre players like Pedro Martinez, and perennial all-stars like Larry Walker. And it sucked. And the stadium was old and rotten and in a lousy part of town far from downtown. And I used those as excuses for years.
Hell – for the first time ever, we were the best team in baseball one August, and what happened? MLB went on strike, and there was no World Series.
So I know what it’s like to have my heart torn out as a sports fan. But by the end of the Expos’ time in Montreal, I couldn’t use those excuses anymore. The writing was on the wall. The team was owned by the league, and it was really, really hard to see 10,000 people in the seats at games and continue to try and argue that giving Montreal more chances with baseball was justified.
That’s where I see the Coyotes today. Not that the city has been given a fair shake with the NHL (much like Montreal with MLB, it hasn’t been), but you seem to be hung up on the wrongs of the past more than you’re considering today’s reality.
If the deal with Hulsizer goes through, great. I wish for a long and prosperous future for the NHL in Phoenix.
Also, I’d point out that maybe arguing, “Well, at least our attendance is better than the Islanders’!” maybe isn’t quite the point you want to make.
Phoenix plays in a brand-new building, has a playoff team on the ice, and has a $36 average ticket price. Plenty of markets would kill to have a situation like this for their own teams.
The Islanders, meanwhile, play in the 2nd-oldest arena in the league (2nd only to MSG which is currently undergoing a major renovation), finished 20 points out of the playoffs in a weak conference and charge an average ticket price $58.
You are comparing apples to oranges. Each franchise situation is unique. History, location, length of existence, etc. I’ve been loathe to get into all these debates because people want to focus on narrow points without looking at the breath. I’m not talking one side or the other. Heck, I have these issues when dealing with people including people who live in my own city..
I could make a case for either Winnipeg or Phoenix depending on the parameters involved.
The Artist Formerly Known as CP2Devil.
Associate Editor at Five For Howling.
14K+ average this year? Not likely. Check your facts sir: http://espn.go.com/nhl/attendance
Home attendance is JUST over 12K and that does not take into account free or grossly under priced tickets.
your right, i looked at total attendance SIR.
doesn’t even matter. i don’t care. 12,000 people per game (and there were not giveaways this year FYI) is actually pretty damn good all things considered. No Stars, no marketing, no owner, no stability, and year-long media campaigns that told all of us fans that we are terrible and don’t deserve a team. Do you know what 3 straight years of negative media coverage will do to a team? Well the Coyotes are the perfect example. The only coverage we get locally is about the team’s ownership situation and a bunch of trolls on blogs that tell us hockey won’t work here. Well I live here and know that it does. I’ll stick to my point that winning or even a star player will fix everything. Case in point, Washington Capitals.
I just don’t understand why it’s so hard to understand that “winning” is not a business plan. What’s complicated about that?
Ovechkin and Crosby are once-in-a-generation talents. And besides, do you think Phoenix has the kind of fanbase that will weather a few seasons of tanking to get high draft picks?
i'm not an idiot, i get it.
we have weathered 12+ seasons of pretty pathetic hockey, followed by two seasons of playoff appearances. All attained with a cap hit near the lowest in the league. What if the Coyotes could have gone out and picked up more pieces in FA? What if they didn’t have to take back equal value in order to make a move? Seeing some of the big names that were moved around this year and last, it sucks knowing you have no shot at any of them. With a good coach (Tippett), better players = more winning. no money=no chance at bettering your squad=less winning. these are not hard to understand.
So... not really?
The city of Winnipeg wants an NHL team, that’s fact. However, I really don’t think anyone is hatching a grand conspiracy that they should wrench the Coyotes back because it’s the remnants of what was once their franchise. I think the city just wants a team. If the Thrashers folded tomorrow, and proposed moving to Winnipeg, would they turn them away because it’s not their team?
The perception I am getting
is yes they would.
hockey doesnt belong in the desert!
(that would be kind of odd to be scooping ice cream and suddenly find a puck, yes. )
Stick to sports relecant to your culture!
(ok now you are just being a bigot).
Per Mare, Per Terras
I have to disagree.
Anyone that wants Phoenix (and only Phoenix) to move to Winnipeg is an idiot, and in the always vocal trollish minority.
Gah
I was trying to make fun od the trolls. That should actually say, “dessert” and not the actual word.
Per Mare, Per Terras
Yeah, not to pile on or anything, but this is just false. Winnipeg wants any team, and the Coyotes right now happen to be the lowest-hanging fruit.
Actually, Winnipeggers more or less want the Coyotes
I haven’t met one that’s said, “Hey guys, what about the Thrashers?”. All they’ve said is, “We want the Jets! It doesn’t matter that they left in 1996! We want the Jets!”.
Maybe I wouldn’t be so angry if all they wanted was a team. But they seem to have corned and picked us out for the team they want to steal back.
Here, fixed.
But they seem to have corned and picked us out for the team they want to steal
back.
It's not what you've done but what you are doing that matters.
Maybe next year the Ice Surface at Jobing.com should be frozen with the tears of Winnipeg. - TimmyHate of FiveForHowling to a troll after it was alleged Coyote fans do not know how to ice skate.
by AlabamaJammer on Apr 22, 2011 9:41 PM MST up reply actions
Maybe I'm just oblivious to the trolls.
But living in Manitoba, I haven’t heard any such distinctions. The case is that everyone wants an NHL team (which would likely be called the Jets either way). www.jetsowner.com has a bit on the top asking if people would rather the Thrashers or Coytoes. It disappoints me that the prevailing notion is that Winnipegers are out to steal a franchise back.
On a related note, has anyone ever heard the song One Great City by the Weakerthans? It’s worth a listen, if just for the one line.
by Mike Hurley on Apr 22, 2011 10:38 PM MST up reply actions
Well, we're all under the impression
That Winnipeg wants to steal “their” franchise back. Do any of you remember the “None of you can skate” post? Posts like that show us that Winnipeg could care less about the Thrashers. What they want is to “take back” what is “rightfully their’s”, and to make Phoenix “suffer”.
Which makes us want our team even more.
by Skii on Apr 23, 2011 12:50 AM MST up reply actions 4 recs
Don't let a few bad apples spoil the barrel.
People like that infuriate me.
by Mike Hurley on Apr 23, 2011 10:29 AM MST up reply actions
The problem is, that over the last 2 years, thats all we’ve had (with few exceptions). Close to 99% of the posts from outside of the coyotes immediate fanbase in regards to the Coyotes moving have been of the ‘You can’t skate/you don’t deserve a team/ we deserve our team back (we get that one a lot). When the minority (and I truely believe that it is a minority, both in Winnipeg and the general hockey community) is so vocal, its hard not to generalise to the majority.
As Featured in Sports Illustrated: http://tinyurl.com/TimmyHate
New Zealand's Number 1 Coyotes Fan - and I have the photos to prove it!
DISCLAMER: Any and all trash talk is intended in a light hearted manner. Failure to take trash talk in this manner may result in foolish anger, looking stupid or Red Wings Fandom. Do not take TimmyHate Trashtalk if you are suffering a heart condition, have had a funectomy or support a return to Winnipeg.
You sound like such a typical Kiwi Coyote fan.
It’s hard to even come up with a funny reply to your comment having never seen another Coyote fan from New Zealand. Do they exist or are you the most vocal minority on the interwebz, Timmy? =)
by ChadInGlendale on Apr 30, 2011 8:16 AM MST up reply actions
Haha
I don’t know of many others, there was a kid at drop in with a yotes sticker covered helmet but other than that…
Lots of Leaf, Devils and pens fans….
As Featured in Sports Illustrated: http://tinyurl.com/TimmyHate
New Zealand's Number 1 Coyotes Fan - and I have the photos to prove it!
DISCLAMER: Any and all trash talk is intended in a light hearted manner. Failure to take trash talk in this manner may result in foolish anger, looking stupid or Red Wings Fandom. Do not take TimmyHate Trashtalk if you are suffering a heart condition, have had a funectomy or support a return to Winnipeg.
I don’t think the Yotes are going to Winnipeg. It will be another team I don’t want to name. The NHL has invested way too much time and energy into Phoenix. I just can’t see this somehow not working out with a long-term commitment to Phoenix.
I also think the NHL has learned a lot from the experience and despite what some may think about the NHL repeating the same efforts for the other unnamed team. I seriously doubt they will not repeat the adventure, not with ready money on the table…
Just my opinion.
I believe Matt's right hand man more than Forbes....
A tweet from Brad Goldberg: “We remain committed to getting the deal done in Phoenix. Forbes and NBC Pro Hockey Talk blogs not accurate.”
by ChadInGlendale on May 6, 2011 6:54 PM MST up reply actions
I believe outside sources more than a stooge
It’s Brad’s job to be the guy standing there staying, “all is well” right up until the moment Hulsizer officially announces he’s moving on to St. Louis.
CLOSED
Because it’s f’n fiction. BOOYAH!
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