Coyote fans what a joke!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So go fuck yourself, thanks…

I think this is the second best troll post we’ve had. The one that talked about how nobody from Phoenix knows how to skate was my personal favorite…I have no idea what happened to that one – it was posted on the night after one of the City of Glendale meetings when they approved either Reinsdorf or Ice Edge or Hulsizer as a potential buyer…good times.

makes me look like a dumbass lol, but the R button on my laptop is jacked up and stuck. At least I have a reason, whats yours jag off. BTW not a typo.

dream, not team.

Nah. That just gets people all pissy. It’s more fun to mock him.

I’ve found that every fanbase is obnoxious in it’s own way. =P

Montreal fans boo our national anthem and they boo Carey Price too.

I am sure you know what I am referencing. Boston was classy in that series and cheered the Canadian anthem.

First point – spell check is your friend – its Hulsizer not Holtzinger

That being said…Let’s do my usual method of replying

I just can’t understand why Glendale taxpayers don’t ask the question how come this Holtzinger guy wont put up the money needed for this team? Why he needs the city of Glendale to pay him 100 million to run an arena?

You do realise that running a multi-million dollar facility is not just using an excel spreadsheet to organise events like a local bar? For example, Metallica’s recent tour took approx 60 Hours pre show and 40 hours post show to assemble and set up the stage. You have to ensure that the venue can take the weight of the equipment, that the venue can be changed from a hockey setup to a concert set up and back in time, that there will be security…the typical concert rider is between 20 and 60 pages of conditions that the promoter and venue must agree and abide to, and then you have to ensure the ice is in a good condition for the NHL (they have requirements in regards to this), and if the ice needs to be removed (for example for rodeo) then you need 24-48 hours to defrost, another 6-12 hours to prep the floor for the rodeo, and then 48-72 hours to refreeze the ice afterwards.

I like how Bettman, the city of Glendale, and the holtzinger people say " its a complicated deal" Well i am sure it is but the fact of the matter is Glendale is paying a guy to own their team! Why? because if they loose the team they will lose jobs in the area, and cant pay the mortage on an arena and shopping plex.

Yes, if they lose the team they lose Jobs, they lose guaranteed dates in the arena, and they lose an anchor tenant. All important things to get Glendale ticking over. Glendale is not ‘paying a guy to own the team’. Glendale is purchasing the rights to charge for parking (as under the current lease agreement the Coyotes pay a fixed fee for the parking, so the COG is buying the rights to charge directly to the ticket holder), and is paying for the Arena to be managed (which is a fee they have to pay regardless to enable the arena to be run)

One thing I agree with is Glendale will suffer if the team goes north thats for sure. Even if the parking lot thing is legal, and the rest of the deal squeeks past the smell test, it is a rotten deal for the taxpayer of that there is no question.

Obviously it is of question otherwise we wouldn’t be having this debate.

The Mayor has stated that the deal needs to go through to save jobs and to help with the tax burden of the arena. That is a true statement! One needs to ask how Glendale got to this point in the first place? I see it as the city of Glendale, along with several other cities, were sold a puck bag full of snake oil, from a clown who was hired by the NHL board to make some huge TV deals in the US. He took his recipe from the NBA and put a bunch of teams in the south and made the deals for tv. Not very good ones but more than the league had before. Now these cities, including Glendale, are trying to make a silk purse out of a sows ear.

Glendale built the arena after the coyotes had moved, they were hardly ‘sold a puck bag of snake oil’, and obviously that ’clown
 is doing well – league revenues are up, and he just got a nice shiny 5 year renewal of his contract with the BOG. Glendale built several multimillion dollar arenas, the University of Phoenix Stadium (sponsored, not used by the U of P) for the Cardinals (and it is a beautiful arena), Jobing.com Arena, and the westgate shopping area. The business case studies of these facilities supports having them there with anchor tennents.

Not many know this but the feds are looking at this deal as well and are questioning if their are discloser issues with the city officials and their legal reps to see if any laws have been broken.

Source?

It doesnt matter how this deal goes. The team in it current location is finished. It will continue to loose millions every year in Phoenix.

If lots of fans come ot to the games, that will help, but even if every seat is full and every seat has a parked car in the lot, all the hotdogs and beer sales won’t save a team that’s best case sanerio is to break even and save jobs. That is not what a sports team survives on.

If the team has a few years of on ice success, builds up some trust with the non-hardcore fan base again, and starts to fill the arena (which if you look at the numbers, are increasing), they will MAKE MONEY. No ifs, ands, or buts. The team is going to have another year of reduced losses after all the playoffs and everything; I foresee losses of less than 15 Million this year. Next year, less than 10, and then less than 5. Suddenly your making money.

So what is the answer? Hire a good marketing team to get that building filled with events that pay rent and the net will be far greater than with a hockey team.

You clearly have NO concept of the number of venues for non-hockey events in the Phoenix metro area. No matter HOW MANY events you get, there is NO CHANCE of it equalling the minimum 41 home games in a year. When you include the fact that it costs money to put on events (the arena has to pay for security – which costs more if it is a concert then an NHL game, as well as the other costs associated with the promotion and staging of an event)

When the Goldwater girl was asked "what about the huge losses the city will incure with the team leaving? Is not the Goldwater institute concerned with that?" Her responce was compleatly to the point. " This should be a lesson to Glendale and other cities when undertaking the building of such large venues". Clearly the city has made a huge mistake and are compounding it with this latest deal that serves nothing except to further buffalo the taxpayer.

So…..the GWI is trying to prevent the Glendale taxpayer paying more money by,…making the Glendale taxpayer cover the (higher) cost? So instead of grabbing your child and scolding them for putting their fork towards the power socket, your going to let them stick in is so they get a (potentially lethal) shock?….

The bottom line is the taxpayers of Glendale need to ask themselves why their city councel is paying a guy to own their team and then ask their Mayer that same question.

Because it’s the lesser of two evils. And (as outlined about) the COG is not paying Hulsizer to own the team, they are conducting a business transaction to purchase the rights to charge for parking and paying an arena management fee to keep a multi-million dollar faculty running smoothly (a job they will have to pay for regardless).

Phew…as Mr Grohl would say…“done done, and I’m onto the next one”

Pretty solid. Good defensive play generally and he’s added the occasional goal. He struggled for a few games learning the system, but has settled in nicely, particularly paired with fellow Czech Klesla.

First off sorry for picking on the spelling, its a bit of a cheap shot to someone who is trying to be (resonably) civil.

First of all I accept that my comment about using the arena for other types of events may be wrong. I don’t know what other venues that are there and I accept that the arena could be redundant to that end. This is a prime example where the city council failed the people on not having a plan B when building arena. Further to that the city council faled in that from the beggining and no one asked enough questions to bring this to the fore and get answers. As I asked in a letter to the Mayor which I have yet to get a responce, I will ask here. " What are the plans for the arena if the team leaves"

I don’t think any city has a ‘plan b’ for if the anchor tennent leaves. What would Pittsburg do if the Penguins left with the Consol Energy Centre? Dallas with theirs if the Stars leave? Its different in places like New York (MSG) or LA (Staples Centre) – but remember these teams are not Anchor Tennents.

I think you summed up my point by saying the current deal is the lesser of two evils. In writing I glazed over many points which for a blog is expected. I have followed this whole debockle closely and it is obvious that the taxpayers are getting and have gotten stroked in the highest order. I see it as a terrible unjust situation taxpayers are put in here. Reguardless of what the Goldwater group’s motives are they believe they have a case and intend on taking it to court if need be. Weather that’s true ,or not, is just a perception. The realiety is that there actions to date are the real problems that are faced buy the NHL, Glendale, and the new owner.

I’ll conceed this deal is not the best deal the COG could have done, but given the timeframes to save the team they need to do it!

If you read the contents of the deal it is clear that the parking related revinues are not underpined by a rightfull non government group thus it falls within corprate welfare. The second point is that the deal in it’s whole reflects corpriate welfare which is against the law.

To poiint 1 I’m not 100% confident I understand the first point you are making? The second point however is not quite true – the AZ Constitution states that a government cannot pay ‘unresonably’ more than they need to for a service. The oft-quoted example – if 3 contractors can fix a water main for $5000, the city cannot pay $100,000 for it to be done. That is illegal. In this situation the parking studies indicate that paying $100 Million for the rights to charge parking is not ‘disproportionate’ to the potential returns.

If you are stating that this deal is legal and that taxpayers are not subsidizing the sale with all due respect, you are not on the planet earth!

I’m am stating the TaxPayers are not subsidizing the sale. The $100 Million (which is the only up front payment from COG to MH) is being funded with bonds – not by taxpayers at this stage and are most likely going to be repaid by the revenues (neither of us have crystal balls to see the future, but I believe 3 parking studies that say it can be over 1 that says it might not. The remaining $97m is paid over 5 years for the cost of Arena Management, a cost the taxpayers would have to pay anywa (which I think is a key point, the $97million is a zero sum argument, either way it has to be paid)

To this point i say this as a personal opinion. I think the deal should go through because it is in fact the lesser of two evils! The city council got the taxpayers into this mess so they should damm well get them out of it. The only thing I would change in this is the time frame. I would try to look for a better solution in the comming years and not be locked in for a long period of time.

I respectfully disagree – if its short term the city could end up in the same shituation (not a spelling error :P) at the end of a short term deal. In this deal the city potentially gets rid of having to service and pay for the arena either after 5 years or at the end of the deal (as Hulsizer has to buy it). I also don’t think this deal is accepted by all parties for a short term.

To be clear I would be voting as a council member representing the people and not voting on what my personal feelings are. I would be expected to do whats best for the people and that would be to try and save whats there and try to make it better given that all that money is allready invested. I couldnt vote in good concience to just cut and run! As you state with growth and success the team could flourish and thus help with the tax burden. Is there a better solution? There must be! The fact is that I personally dont believe the team will flourish! That is my opinion and to that, we may just have to disagree . In that, if i had a vote on council I would vote yes to an amended deal just to save whats left and look for a more viable solution. I say this under the premis that the team and arena would never make money but just break even thus keeping jobs in the area filled and the shopping area and arena at least in use.

Your right we will have to agree to disagree on the team making money, i think this team can (and more to the point, will) be profitable in the future – and MH (who we both must agree, is a smart businessman) thinks so too.
To your point about a better solution – yes there probably is if they still had time. The reality of the situation is this: this deal must close, or the team walks. I don’t see any two ways about it, short of another person swooping in with enough money to buy the team outright and keep them in Phx. So this deal is the best deal given the situation – a point I think we agree on

Without any speculation this new owner would be getting one of the sweetest deals ever in the NHL and the city council and the NHL is handing it to him. I am not sure there are any other choices out there, given the time frame. That is a damm shame.

True. Not the sweetest deal ever in the US sports markets though.

Now ffor me personally; I am a Winnipeg’er and I wanted our team to stay because I love hockey at its highest level but I did not want one dime of tax dollars to go to support them because I just don’t believe it should! Many disagree with me but that’s my opinion. Any deal that brings a team back here will be watched by many and if tax dollars are used you will here from me at the top of my lungs.There are situations where tax dollars can be used if the public intrest in a building is taken into account. Our new footbal stadium is an example but only on its face as the football team is owned by the public so we would not be comparing apples to apples.

As far as the football stadium, I’ve seen many a comment on it. I don’t understand the issues well enough to understand the deal, so I won’t comment. I have to know, with the Bombers being commuity owned, is that not tax dollars being used to support a team? (pardon my ignorance, I am just curious).

I may not be expressing myself under the correct blog heading and appoligize for that and in closing I re-state that I hope this deal, altered slightly, goes through to help protect the huge tax dollar amount allready invested as I see no other way and offer no other solution but I emphasize that I just don’t think hockey will be as successfull as you predict it to be. Here in Winnipeg with the pridicted cost of tickets, I would only be able to afford to take my family to a few games a season that is just the reallity and I am sharing this fact to show that I personnally think tax dollars would be better spent than subsodizing a Winnipeg team. Keep in mind there is no tax dollars being asked for if a team comes back here. I have to say that I will believe that when I see it. It seems that tax dollars allways seem to be in the mix on these deals.

The whole purpose of this blog is to stimulate conversation. You’ve come on here to give us your opinion, and have done so in a way to debate the issues, not to say ‘H0ckys dnt blng in DESSERT LOLZ. YOUZ STOLEZ OUR TEAMZ’ – sadly some (and I’ve always stated, the vocal minority) of your countrymen do come on and post those commnets. I hate seeing news of our team on other sites and one of the first comments is ‘move them already’. Personally, despite the bad will generated by the vocal troll minority, i still hope for a Winnipeg team to come back to the NHL. I want to see Winnipeg/Manatoba vs Phoenix Coyotes. How’d that be for a rivalry game? But the business side of it from the NHL’s perspective, will prevent that from happening.

Garry Bettman has improved the financial bottom line of the league but is a gameplaying, egotistcial, jerk. My opinion here Thats just the way I feel about it..

I understand the feelings – but – Bettman doesn’t operate in a Vaccum. He is answerable to the BOG who make the real decisions. He’s a puppet, a figurehead.

Goldwater is tell everyone the deal stinks and it does. get over it. You can’t sugar coat it. As I stated it may be the only thig out there right now, but it still stinks.

Again, I respectfully disagree.

You are on thin ice if you defend the deal as a "good and profitable deal for Glendale"

Thin ice in a beautiful arena, with a Coyotes logo at centre ice :P. And I stand here proudly. I think this deal will be looked at in 26 years time and people will praise the forsight.

I used the term "paying new owner to buy the team" as a broad statement! Yes you can take certen parts of the deal and explain it but the deal AS A WHOLE is corpriate welfare. Even the Mayor has not denide this. Listen closley to her public statements.

Yes but that broad statement is exactly why I take umbridge with it. This deal is NOT like going to the shops and buying a carton of milk. This deal is more like how Dan Ellis buys his milk – he pays his servant to go and buy the milk, bring it back to him, and then pays him a little bit each day to serve his milk to him and make sure its good. At the end of the deal the servant will buy the remaining milk from him.

Ok we all know that really Dan has a feild of cows that produce the finest milk on demand and they are all gold plated. But its a good example. (If it wasn’t for escrow they’d have ruby studs on their sides, but thats a #DanEllisProblem)

See above reply

Welcome to troll central =P

I think we agree on more thing that we disagree.

I disagree :P. Kidding, kidding.

The Bombers are fully owned by the community and realize the proffets. It does not loose money and the stadium is used by the public ie Uof M and local. If these things were not true I would be against it. Having said that I have kinda disagreed on the new stadium because there are other more important things to spend the money on. The problem with that mentality is nothing would ever get done and there would never be any thing like new stadiums and arenas. Just a really tough call.

Thank you for the background, i never knew the situation so could never comment.

I for one admit I am not in Phoenix and can only comment on what info is out there. You on the other hand are there and have another take on things for which I truly respect.

Amusingly I’m not in Phoenix either, or even in the states. I’m in Auckland, New Zealand, on the other side of the world. But having been a coyotes fan since day 1 (i became an ice hockey fan in 1996) there is no team i am more passionate about

Thanks for being resonable and open to debate

I’m used to it :P

There is a senior manager at my workplace called Tom, I’m Tim and on the front line of the phones.

The number of times I hear ‘Oh are you Tom XXXX….’ …sigh

They have 911 in Canada?

You don’t need to go offending the drinking community calling them them Canadians or Habs fans.