Now what?
by Marc Fournier on May 11, 2010 12:10 AM MST
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PrintEDITOR'S NOTE: Promoting this to the front page and adding my responses to the first comment. I thought these questions were important and are issues that I think are being mis-reported on by the MSM....
There are two things that have been plaguing my brain since this whole debacle decided to happen again:
- The NHL is asking Glendale for (an estimated) $20-25 million to cover their losses
- Ice Edge (reportedly) will only agree to terms with Glendale if the city agrees to cover all (future?) losses.
Can Glendale really handle all of this?
I need you guys to help explain some things to me so I can keep my sanity. Does Glendale have the money to pay back the NHL? Will the taxpayers have to deal with it? If Ice Edge claims to be such avid hockey fans than why are they only interested in purchasing the team on the grounds that it helps their business? Why exactly did Reinsdorf back out? What are the deadlines that the NHL has before they decide to relocate?
Oh and... UUUUGGGHHHH!
Five for Howling is a fan community that allows members to post their own thoughts and opinions on the Phoenix Coyotes and hockey in general. These views and thoughts may not be shared by the editor(s) of Five for Howling
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Ok...
I’m moving this to the front page to try and clear up some misconceptions that I think people are having (based on my understanding of what is going on, which could be wrong).
1) The NHL is not asking Glendale to cover the losses that were incurred for the past season. Those losses (theoretically) will be part of the purchase price charged to a new owner. What the NHL has asked Glendale to do, and what will be decided at the meeting tonight, is agree that IF a new owner is not found before September, Glendale will cover the losses for the 2010-2011 season, until a permanent owner is found.
2) IEH is also not asking Glendale to cover its losses. This is the big difference between IEH and Reinsdorf’s bid. Reinsdorf would’ve basically taken money right from the city. IEH wants the city to create a CFD (a funding district) that would raise extra revenue for the team through small taxes to local business, fees for parking at Westgate, etc. A set amount of money is guaranteed to IEH (it’s something like $7 million/year) with the excess going to Glendale. However, if the CFD does not raise this money, then yes, Glendale could be on the hook for some of it. However, if the team becomes profitable (and having sellout crowds night-in and night-out will go a long way towards that), then it shouldn’t be an issue.
3) Can Glendale handle this? Not sure. I don’t think they have the $20-25 million to cover losses next season (assuming that those would be the figures which is by no means guaranteed). Can they create a CFD, and get IEH in and make this work…yes.
For the more jumbled questions. IEH are fans…and they don’t really have a business (as far as I know, at least not together) other than this attempt to purchase the Coyotes. But they are businessmen, and I understand that they aren’t going to put down $160 million if they don’t think they can make money at some point…you don’t become businessmen that have $160 million to spend if you make deals like that.
As for why Reinsdorf pulled out, I think he doesn’t really have the stomach for the fight. He doesn’t really want a hockey team in any way…he thought buying the team could help some of the economic development he hoped building a White Sox spring training facility nearby…but he’s not willing to take a risk on it. Quite frankly, we’ll be better off without him.
As for the deadlines…I don’t think there are any set in stone, but if it’s not settled by either the beginning or end of June, the NHL can declare the lease void and arrange to move the team. Obviously if progress is being made, they won’t do that…the big one is next September…they are just not going to keep funding the team indefinitely.
Hope that helps, and I hope I haven’t misconstrued anything…this is my recollection of how it all works from my past review of everything.
Support Coyotes Hockey - Five For Howling
(Oh, and go Philly teams as well!)
IEH is also not asking Glendale to cover its losses. This is the big difference between IEH and Reinsdorf’s bid. Reinsdorf would’ve basically taken money right from the city. IEH wants the city to create a CFD (a funding district) that would raise extra revenue for the team through small taxes to local business, fees for parking at Westgate, etc
This is a distinction without a difference. Money from a CFD is every bit as much the money of Glendale taxpayers as money from the general fund. Under Arizona law it may (or may not) be legally distinct in how the laws apply to it, but the practical difference is zero. Either way, it’s money that the city could have taxed for other uses. Even if they opted not to collect it in the past, it’s still tax money.
by J. Michael Neal on May 11, 2010 1:39 PM MST up reply actions
Sure…but what I was trying to establish was the difference between the operations of the CFD in Reinsdorf’s and IEH’s MoU and they were fairly substantial how they differed.
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(Oh, and go Philly teams as well!)
by Jordan Ellel on May 11, 2010 1:52 PM MST up reply actions
I still blame everything on the move to Glendale. Hockey works in the desert, but not on the outskirts of civilization.
What’s done is done. I don’t think it was the best idea, but I don’t think Scottsdale was a good idea either. If we had a nice arena downtown, that probably would’ve been best. What annoys me is that Glendale fought and fought to get them to take a deal out there, offering tax incentives, favorable whatever…and now they are just f—-ing around with it. They moved there, make it work!!!
Support Coyotes Hockey - Five For Howling
(Oh, and go Philly teams as well!)
by Jordan Ellel on May 11, 2010 10:29 AM MST up reply actions
They’ll just have to deal with the loans on an arena that nobody wants.
Not even the Toronto Maple Leafs could kill my optimism
Tyler Ennis: Freed from Portland!
That is the greatest punishment to Glendale I can think of if they screw the pooch on this one. They asked for this and now they’ve got it.
…couldn’t have happened to a better city.
It's not what you've done but what you are doing that matters.
And the roses in this grand ol' stadium are once again Crimson. - Eli Gold, CTSN Broadcast of the BCS Championship Game at the Rose Bowl, 1-7-2010
by AlabamaJammer on May 11, 2010 11:30 AM MST up reply actions
They definitely have to make it work now, but it makes me wonder what other offers were on the table.
What make you think Scottsdale wouldn’t have been good?
Cost would have been significantly higher, traffic to and from games would’ve been an absolute nightmare…
My biggest complaint about the line of argument though is that if the stadium was there people would’ve gone…no, no they wouldn’t. Phoenix “fans” don’t support teams that perform the way the Coyotes did over the past 8 years…no matter how close to home they play.
Support Coyotes Hockey - Five For Howling
(Oh, and go Philly teams as well!)
by Jordan Ellel on May 11, 2010 1:27 PM MST up reply actions
I’m not so sure about cost being higher if the City of Scottsdale offered the right incentives. I agree that traffic on Highway 101 would be bad, but so is traffic on I-10 heading out to Glendale. At least there are decent non-highway streets in Scottsdale as an alternative.
I think you’re wrong about the “fans” though (and I gather that your use of the quotation marks means fair-weather and casual fans). A better location means that at least fans won’t feel like it was a complete waste of time and money to go to the game. There’s still a lot to do in the area before/after the game. I personally know some season ticket holders that live in Scottsdale that stopped getting them after the move. It’s just not worth it for most people to make the trek out to Glendale.
There’s plenty in the west valley that feel the same. Truth of the matter is, we still have a stadium that is not that hard to get to, nor that far away…it’s just not a real excuse and I think it masks the fact that these fans just didn’t want to pay to see a loser any more.
Support Coyotes Hockey - Five For Howling
(Oh, and go Philly teams as well!)
by Jordan Ellel on May 11, 2010 1:59 PM MST up reply actions
Glendale fought and fought to get them to take a deal out there
Yes, they fought and fought to get them to take a deal out there. Now, having done so, the team and the league are saying that they don’t like that they signed on to, and want Glendale to offer them a new deal that’s better for the team and worse for the city than the current one. Your argument seems to be that, because Glendale wanted the team there under a particular set of conditions, that they are somehow obligated to let the team now set any conditions it wants and take the deal. It’s an absurd position. Glendale may or may not be better off by agreeing to change the deal, but they aren’t under any legal, ethical, or practical obligation to let other parties dictate a new agreement.
by J. Michael Neal on May 11, 2010 1:43 PM MST up reply actions
No, they aren’t under any obligation to negotiate a new lease. But considering what a ridiculous one-sided agreement they got Ellman to agree to so that he could get his real estate deal, they also shouldn’t be surprised that a new owner would want one that looks a little bit more like the agreements other tenants have with their arena leases. But they need to make the determination of whether it is worth it to have an empty building or keep the Coyotes…nobody can or will be able to force their hands there.
And to the point, I think all of these public-financed stadiums are frickin’ ridiculous and shouldn’t be approved any more. Look at the mess with Yankee Stadium. That’s an organization with more money than the US government and most third world nations combined and they publicly financed a new ballpark? Ridiculous!
Support Coyotes Hockey - Five For Howling
(Oh, and go Philly teams as well!)
by Jordan Ellel on May 11, 2010 1:57 PM MST up reply actions
That’s totally inaccurate! Yankee Stadium was financed entirely with private funds. The stadium is on land owned by the state but that’s it.
Caps Snaps - Washington Capitals Photography
Founder of the Eric Fehr Fan Club.
“We’ve used tax-exempt financing, but we’re paying for each and every cent of this stadium,”
Randy Levine, President of the Yankees
Caps Snaps - Washington Capitals Photography
Founder of the Eric Fehr Fan Club.
But considering what a ridiculous one-sided agreement they got Ellman to agree to so that he could get his real estate deal, they also shouldn’t be surprised that a new owner would want one that looks a little bit more like the agreements other tenants have with their arena leases.
Any time one party agrees to build a $180 million building for the use of another party, it takes a lot of brass to contend that it’s a one-sided deal in favor of the first party.
by J. Michael Neal on May 12, 2010 9:27 AM MST up reply actions
I’m just comparing it to the lease agreements that you see with other facilities that generally cost about the same amount if not more. For pete’s sake…we don’t pay for parking at the arena. The team ends up having to pay the City for use of parking lots, as opposed to most team’s that can make several million dollars per year by charging a parking surcharge. These are the types of “concessions” the city got from Ellman because all he cared about was building a mall on the adjacent property.
Support Coyotes Hockey - Five For Howling
(Oh, and go Philly teams as well!)
by Jordan Ellel on May 12, 2010 9:33 AM MST up reply actions
What is COGs Problem with IEH?
Of course we are all getting 1/1000th of the true story here…but what is the chief complaint from the COG with IEH? From what I have heard, the main reason IEH backed away from the table was that the COG would not grant exclusivity. Is that true? If so, why not?!? They don’t have too many other suitors out there and most of what I have read makes it seem that this is a win-win situation for everyone. What am I missing here? What is IEH demanding that keeps the COG from granting exclusivity?
Welcome
thanks for joining…
I really don’t know the answer, unfortunately. My guess is this: there are questions about the legality of the CFD that both Reinsdorf and IEH are asking for in their respective deals. It’s going to take some lobbying of the AZ legislature and everyone else to get this approved/legit/etc. Reinsdorf is in bed with a former big-wig in AZ politics and has some experience wrangling concessions out of governments. So Glendale figured that he could get it done…I think the NHL also felt the same way and put their backing there to an extent.
IEH is great to us fans, and seem to say all the right things in their papers, but they don’t have the same political clout…at least not from what I’ve seen. So that could be all there is to it…but that could be a million miles from the truth. I’m sure we’re going to learn more as we go…
Support Coyotes Hockey - Five For Howling
(Oh, and go Philly teams as well!)
by Jordan Ellel on May 11, 2010 12:52 PM MST up reply actions
Yeah, I just feel like there has to be something missing (from the public reports). I do understand the legality issue, but politicians can always seem to get this stuff like this done. I think hockey here can work. The team has lost money every year, but this was the first year they have given the fans anything to be excited about and they responded.
by Ryan Schmaltz on May 11, 2010 1:31 PM MST up reply actions
I’m pretty sure that the NHL, and probably Glendale, are also worried that Ice Edge doesn’t really have the capital necessary to make this work. If that’s the case, then the league would just end up in the same spot, having to cover operating losses for more years. After Moyes and the fiasco in Tampa, they are probably very leery of an ownership group like Ice Edge, and it’s hard to blame them.
by J. Michael Neal on May 11, 2010 1:34 PM MST up reply actions
Nevermind
That was all hyperbole apparently.
Wear your own fur.
by Marc Fournier on May 11, 2010 1:42 PM MST up reply actions
I don’t understand Glendale’s angle here, so I’ll be there tonight to see it in person. You have a passionate potential ownership group at the doorstep, and you slam the door in their face because (I guess) you’re still hoping this other guy will dance with you. I can’t believe they can be as stupid as advertised. Get over it, Glendale – Jerry doesn’t love you anymore. If I were on the CoG CC, at the very least, I’d want to enter tonight’s meeting with a buyer-in-waiting so that I could assure the tax payers they will not be on the hook for the looming ~$25MM charge that appears to be necessary to keep the team. The money has to be committed one way or another, either by the CoG or a new owner, otherwise the team will walk and they’ll be left with a beautiful empty building and a $180MM bill. I hope we have a good showing tonight – feels like another game 7 all over again. Let’s hope this one ends better than the last.
If I were on the CoG CC, at the very least, I’d want to enter tonight’s meeting with a buyer-in-waiting so that I could assure the tax payers they will not be on the hook for the looming ~$25MM charge that appears to be necessary to keep the team.
Of course, the deal Ice Edge and the league is proposing wouldn’t allow them to offer any such assurances to the taxpayer.
by J. Michael Neal on May 11, 2010 1:46 PM MST reply actions
Not true
If they sign a deal with IEH the COG will not have ANYTHING to pay in terms of the teams “losses” (if any)
New Zealand's Number 1 Coyotes Fan - and I have the photos to prove it!
Supporting my Desert Dogs since 1996 from 6000
!AWOOOOOOOOO!
They won’t have to pay for losses…but depending on how/if they get a CFD established, they may be on the hook for something…
And I think J.‘s point focuses on the fact that right now the NHL is keeping the CoG from voting on anything with IEH until they settle the agreement with the NHL to cover losses if the owner deal doesn’t get done. It’s a bit ass-backwards, but I really expect nothing less from these folks right now.
Support Coyotes Hockey - Five For Howling
(Oh, and go Philly teams as well!)
by Jordan Ellel on May 11, 2010 2:54 PM MST up reply actions
I can see the NHL's side of it.
They want an asusrance that if things keep going the way they [expletive] have, that they won’t be left holding the bag. Bettman wants this team in Phx. Most of the owners obviously do as well. But ~20m is ~20m.
Lets just hope a deal is done, we get to keep our team, IEH (or whoever) get to be the owners we deserve and we can start planning for the 2010-2011 Phoenix Coyotes season
New Zealand's Number 1 Coyotes Fan - and I have the photos to prove it!
Supporting my Desert Dogs since 1996 from 6000
!AWOOOOOOOOO!
Ah, so there won’t be a CFD established that will pay money to the Coyotes? That’s clearly what you mean, because, otherwise, you’d be lying. Tax payer money is taxpayer money.
by J. Michael Neal on May 12, 2010 9:29 AM MST up reply actions
there will be a CFD, but it will not be charged to any residential area. It will be a surcharge for parking/use for the area around the stadium…the areas that are going to be vacant if the team leaves. So yes, they will pay a tax, and they will do it gladly because it will keep most of them in business.
Support Coyotes Hockey - Five For Howling
(Oh, and go Philly teams as well!)
by Jordan Ellel on May 12, 2010 9:35 AM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Arena location
I wish everyone would get past the location of the arena. It is where it is, and expansion is happening West not East or North folks. Funny how no one complained about where the arena was during the playoffs….. Winning does cure everything…. unless you don’t have a hockey team any longer.
sender-timeSent at 1:33 PM (GMT+12:00). Current time there: 1:33 PM. ✆
to"mmartinez@glendaleaz.com" <mmartinez@glendaleaz.com>,
“”mailto:nrobinson@glendaleaz.com">nrobinson@glendaleaz.com" <nrobinson@glendaleaz.com>,
“”mailto:yknaack@glendaleaz.com">yknaack@glendaleaz.com" <yknaack@glendaleaz.com>,
“”mailto:lieberman@glendaleaz.com">lieberman@glendaleaz.com" <lieberman@glendaleaz.com>,
“”mailto:mcastaneda@glendaleaz.com">mcastaneda@glendaleaz.com" <mcastaneda@glendaleaz.com>,
“”mailto:dgoulet@glendaleaz.com">dgoulet@glendaleaz.com" <dgoulet@glendaleaz.com>,
“”mailto:bgeorge@glendaleaz.com">bgeorge@glendaleaz.com" <bgeorge@glendaleaz.com>,
“”mailto:sfrate@glendaleaz.com">sfrate@glendaleaz.com" <sfrate@glendaleaz.com>,
“”mailto:jclark@glendaleaz.com">jclark@glendaleaz.com" <jclark@glendaleaz.com>
dateWed, May 12, 2010 at 1:33 PM
subjectPhoenix Coyotes Vote
mailed-bygmail.com
hide details 1:33 PM (0 minutes ago)
Good Afternoon Council People.
I know this e-mail is reaching you late, but I hope and pray that each
of you read this before you enter the public meeting.
Today is the most important day in the history of the Phoenix Coyotes
and – more importantly – the city of Glendale. If the measures
proposed today do not pass, the City of Glendale will be left with an
arena with no anchor tenant. It is widely stated the arena was built
with loans totalling approximately $180m. If the Coyotes go, this
Arena risks becoming a White Elephant for the city, and I tax payers
will remember the council who allowed the anchor tenant to go.
I am not a resident of Glendale – or even the United States. I am from
the other side of the world, a little country called New Zealand. And
yet in the last 2 years alone I have spent close to US$1000 in the
city of Glendale – between game tickets, meals, souvenirs and other
amenities – all on Coyotes related activities. Over the following few
years I can be expected to return to Glendale and spend more money,
including accomodation for future trips. But if the Coyotes are
allowed to leave, I will not step foot in Glendale again. There is no
reason for me to do so.
I’m sure there are others like me, along with many who do reside
within your community. I plead and implore you: do not let the Coyotes
leave town. Do not let an empty arena be your legacy on the council.
Tim Holding
Proud Phoenix Coyotes fan since 1996
New Zealand's Number 1 Coyotes Fan - and I have the photos to prove it!
Supporting my Desert Dogs since 1996 from 6000 miles away
!AWOOOOOOOOO!
Nice email, hope they read it.
Caps Snaps - Washington Capitals Photography
Founder of the Eric Fehr Fan Club.
Are you kidding?
No you all go home and stop pretending that you are in any way connected to the game of hockey (a game most of you have taken an interest in so that you can attend a big time sports event that doesn’t garner a large black population).
Now you sit back and watch $30m of your tax dollars support a team that none of you ever have a hope of having your children play for. $30m that could have come in handy given your debt ridden, over leveraged, greedy lifestyles.
Now you sit back and wait 3 months for a team that consists purely of people that come from far away places, safe in the knowledge that none of you will ever, ever, ever play hockey.
yawn
Anyone who attempts to generate random numbers by deterministic means is, of course, living in a state of sin.
by unnamedDBacksfan on May 11, 2010 10:12 PM MST up reply actions
AHAHAHAHA
Meanwhile I’m going to go buy season tickets for an NHL team.
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JaredFromLondon: ...Odin, he's cool.
by Travis Hair on May 11, 2010 10:23 PM MST up reply actions 2 recs
All I have to say is
PFFFFFFFFFFf blowing rasberries
New Zealand's Number 1 Coyotes Fan - and I have the photos to prove it!
Supporting my Desert Dogs since 1996 from 6000 miles away
!AWOOOOOOOOO!
…set is getting old. Try some new material Mr one trick pony.
It's not what you've done but what you are doing that matters.
And the roses in this grand ol' stadium are once again Crimson. - Eli Gold, CTSN Broadcast of the BCS Championship Game at the Rose Bowl, 1-7-2010
by AlabamaJammer on May 12, 2010 7:41 AM MST up reply actions
i am born and raised here in arizona and i play hockey. of course both my parents are from finland. i better go buy my season tickets while i can too.
Phoenix Coyotes! Arizona Cardinals! Phoenix Suns! and the Arizona Diamondbacks!
by phoenixcoyotes17 on May 12, 2010 7:26 PM MST up reply actions
my brand new seats are nice BTW
I’m sitting in the Toyota Club this year, I’ll watch the games with my 4 star buffet 4 rows back from the glass while you on your couch scratching your nutsack wishing you were American. How many of your family members are in the NHL? or even college for that matter?
Thanks for the lovely post and come back soon.
Aaron Gillam
neprinol
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Pacific Standings
| GP | W | L | OTL | PT | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
San Jose
|
51 | 29 | 16 | 6 | 64 |
|
Los Angeles
|
55 | 26 | 19 | 10 | 62 |
|
Phoenix
|
55 | 26 | 21 | 8 | 60 |
|
Dallas
|
53 | 28 | 23 | 2 | 58 |
|
Anaheim
|
53 | 21 | 24 | 8 | 50 |
(updated 2.10.2012 at 1:26 AM MST)
Coyotes Schedule
Next 5 Games
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Chicago
|
Sat 02/11 | 6:30 PM MST |
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@
Vancouver
|
Mon 02/13 | 8:00 PM MST |
|
@
Los Angeles
|
Thu 02/16 | 8:30 PM MST |
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Dallas
|
Sat 02/18 | 6:00 PM MST |
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Los Angeles
|
Tue 02/21 | 7:00 PM MST |
Last 5 Games
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Calgary
|
Thu 02/09 | OT - W 2 - 1 |
|
@
Dallas
|
Tue 02/07 | W 4 - 1 |
|
Detroit
|
Mon 02/06 | W 3 - 1 |
|
San Jose
|
Sat 02/04 | W 5 - 3 |
|
Anaheim
|
Tue 01/31 | L 1 - 4 |
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